Insight for a noob with a 30-30 lever action?

D

Dan1894

Guest
R. G. Robinett said:
work up via 1/2 Gr. increments untill one of the following dictates stopping: excessive pressure; a FULL case; or, the grouping ' goes AWAY'.
Click to expand...

Forgive a noob question, but how is "excessive pressure" determined? I just got a Sears 54 (1894) 18" that is now on its third generation -- I really don't want to blow it. Never reloaded before, but looking at it now considering 30-30 prices.

Been reading at reloadersnest.com, here, and a few other places. Currently looking at getting started with W-748, Federal 210 or CCI - BR2, and looking for a cheaper source or alternative for the Hornady Flexes. Maybe this 110grain. I'm really looking for a more personal defense round than deer round, with sufficiently good accuracy for the occasional 200m informal competitions in my area.

Will a Lee Classic Loader Kit do the trick to get me started?

Thanks
 
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Dan1894 said:
Forgive a noob question, but how is "excessive pressure" determined? I just got a Sears 54 (1894) 18" that is now on its third generation -- I really don't want to blow it. Never reloaded before, but looking at it now considering 30-30 prices.

Been reading at reloadersnest.com, here, and a few other places. Currently looking at getting started with W-748, Federal 210 or CCI - BR2, and looking for a cheaper source or alternative for the Hornady Flexes. Maybe this 110grain. I'm really looking for a more personal defense round than deer round, with sufficiently good accuracy for the occasional 200m informal competitions in my area.

Will a Lee Classic Loader Kit do the trick to get me started?

Thanks
Click to expand...



WHOOAAHHhhhhhhhhh!!

Good thing you asked :)

You must understand that EVERYTHING on this board revolves around supremely STOUT bolt actioned rifles. Which you've most definitely not got. Pressures are bandied about here that would disassociate the sideplates of your 30-30! The 1894 design is one of the weakest production rifles on the planet, not in any way unsafe, just weak. So weak that I'd be hard pressed to name a reliable pressure indicator for it!

My advice to you is to get a Lee Loader AND A SCALE, a cheap balance beam scale will suffice. [[[[[ http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...&parentType=index&indexId=cat20853&hasJS=true ]]]]]] And stay with recommended loads from the reloading manuals, change NOTHING..... not brand of primer, not brand of brass from the book.

Someday when you can afford it get a chronograph for 100 bucks. It's invaluable for working up safe loads for rifles like yours. And it's fun.

al
 
Thanks for the heads up! :)

Where can I find a manual? Am I correct in assuming LEVERevolution and Core-Lokt (picked up a few boxes today, in part for fun in part for the brass) are not too hot for this older design?

Where does a chronograph come in? Is it used to tweak a handload's pressure to be less than or equal to a presumed safe factory load? Yes, I display my noobness. :D I am willing to spend what it takes to get going on reloading; ~$.70-$1 a round is too rich for my blood, and if the purchases can also be used with future rifle/ammo configs than so much the better.

My goal is to have a long-term safe load with sufficient accuracy, say <3moa, to 200m with anti-personal effectiveness at that range. For deer hunting with a larger grain ammo I don't mind needing to be in closer for an accurate shot.

Going to see if I can snipe an electronic scale off ebay. Also going to check to see if any of the unis around are getting rid of any older electronic chemistry scales.
 
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you would be better served on the factory/hybred forum. we wont lead you wrong, but what you got aint what this forum is about.

.and yes the lee load will work fine, just add a scale and a cheap caliper to measure oal.


mike in co
 
I have an 1894 winchester that my great grandfather carried around when looking for deer (built in 1914, and handles modern factory loads just fine). I wanted to be able to break it down and clean it properly. I also had initially had ideas on reblueing the action and refinishing the stock, but quickly realized that part of owning that gun was the nostalgia of the worn areas. Be that as it may, I found some great guys and information on the SASS (Single Action Shooting Society www.sassnet.com) sites. This is by no means to say that the guys over here would stear you wrong, but the guys who shoot those sort of guns on a regular basis would really be able to guide you best.
When you tell a bit of the story of the gun you are working with I would almost guarantee that you will get someone to help you out.

As far as a reloading manual everyone has their favorites, and I can honestly say that each one has added to my understanding of reloading (along with many re-reads of the precision shooting primer). Sierra, hornady, etc... all have reloading manuals with suggested loads, terminology, saftey warnings,etc... As stated before you absolutely do not want to deviate from what is listed in those manuals without understanding the limitations of your personal rifle. The last thing you want is a failure.
If you have access find someone in your area that has reloaded and get the scoop from them. The first time you touch off a round you will probably stand up and lean way back from the rifle, but once you gain confidence in your technique and understanding of the loads you'll be just fine.

The chronograph won't tell you about pressure so much as velocity of the round. You will have to ask guys who shoot lever guns about how they experience loads that are too high in pressure. It may be a difficult cycling of the lever, cratered primers, unable to cycle the lever at all, etc...

My best advice when it comes to starting to reload is read, read, and then read some more. Just when you think you have it all down there will be some small detail that will pop up, and make your experience less than rewarding. Keep good logs and never put powder into unlabeled bottles.

Hope this helps and enjoy that rifle.
Mike
 
Dan1894 said:
My goal is to have a long-term safe load with sufficient accuracy, say <3moa, to 200m with anti-personal effectiveness at that range.
Click to expand...
I might get jumped on for this, but you best do some research before you go any further on self-defense at 200m. Different jurisdictions have different legal criteria.
 
Thanks for the insight so far guys and pointing me in the right direction. I'll post on SASS and the non-bench section of this forum. :)

Jennings, I was simply referring to the effectiveness of the round. Having sufficient accuracy at 200m without sufficient effectiveness on what you are shooting is pointless.
 
30-30

What was said above. the 30-30 model 94 like they said; is older and lower pressure. find a good load and have fun.
 
Slow Down

The first thing you want to buy is a load manual. I prefer the Hornady. Read it thoroughly. Lee is cheap stuff, but surprisingly good quality. I started with a plastic hammer, lee loader and set of scales.

Home defense rounds are not commonly associated with 30-30, as you have to shoot a round nose bullet or leverloution (or whatever it is called). The reason for this is the tube magazine. Pointed bullet resting on the primer of the cartridge in front of it, add a little recoil, you get the picture.

the chrono is for measuring the speed of the bullet. it gives a good indication of what is happening in the barrel and lets you compair different loads. but that is 201 level course and this is 101. Start with a Manual.

Sam
 
Dan 1894,

The first centerfire rifle that I ever owned was a Winchester model 64 lever action. It was also the first rifle I ever reloaded for and it was with one of these reloads that I got my first deer.

I loaded near maximum (about factory specs) according to the loading manual that I used. I used a 150 grain flat nose bullet and 3031 powder. I only neck sized my brass and it was very hard to close the action. I learned the hard way that I should full length resize because that action just had too much give in it. My uncle borrowed the rifle and missed the chance on a deer because of my reloading.

A very good place to get reliable information about loads in your rifle is the Sierra bullet advisors. Get one of their manuals and there is a free number you can dial for their helpful service.

Good luck,

Concho Bill
 
for beginners

especially for the 30-30win. RCBS makes a starters kit which includes a set of full length dies. this will include a manual, scales, powder dropper and a press. midwayusa, cabelas, gander mountain, or even your local gunshop can get it for you. just my opinion, Fred
 
Any of you guys use www.loaddata.com? The bummer with choosing one manual over another is being locked down to that manufacturer's bullets...though perhaps you could swap same grain similar type bullets from other manufacturers? New ammo like the Leverevolution can cause manuals to go out of date too. I don't even know if the Hornady Flex Tips are even in Hornady's manual yet. :confused: A book doesn't have a subscription fee though.

Clifdweller, don't mind 201 level content, lay it on. :) Chrono wise, I'm just confused how a velocity measurement can be used to determine pressures when the differences in barrel length and powders' burn rate are considered. I suppose it's useful for a given powder choice if you have the same barrel length as a manual?

I'll be sure to get a set of vernier calipers Wynne! I'll probably buy the tool to relength the brass once I have a sufficient pile of the to justify doing so. I assume at some point thought the brass just has to be discarded/recycled?

Fireball, got any specific product numbers? I am fairly unfamiliar with all the options, and may of the prices encourage my ambivalence at the reloading stage I'm at right now. I'm looking for cheap but not cheapo. Low volume is fine as I don't need to crank out that many rounds. I'm liking the Lee Classic Loader and its price, but I'm willing to be enlightened if you have sage counsel for this novice. :) Putting money to something caliber independent would certainly influence me.
 
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advise

i once read an article of wit that explains my theory perfectly.
good toasted oats costs a bit. once they are cycled thru the horse the oats are alot cheaper!

i saved money to purchase an RCBS kit when i was 15 years old. presently im 55 and using most of the equipment i purchased then, enough said.

its an investment. if one purchases good quality equipment to start with they only have to cry once. if one buys cheap and finds out the cheap way is inadequate they cry twice to upgrade.

Food for thought, when reloading the 30-30 one has to roll crimp the case into the chanellure of the bullet. i dont believe the lee kit is set up to do this operation. the lee kit may work if one shot single shot all the time, but if you feed cartridges from the tube magazine expect to be disappointed.

as requested are the URL's for the equipment i suggested.

http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RCB09357

http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RCB14601

Fred
 
Dan1894 said:
I'll be sure to get a set of vernier calipers Wynne! I'll probably buy the tool to relength the brass once I have a sufficient pile of the to justify doing so. I assume at some point thought the brass just has to be discarded/recycled?
Click to expand...

Dan, I would say for you to forget the vernier calipers for now. The full length resizing die is more of what you need. The problem is not with the length of the case that you could use the calipers with but rather the expansion of the case and moving out of the shoulder. For this you need to full length resize your brass. For starters, you can get by without full length resizing but, in the long run, you will need it.

Concho Bill
 
If I recall correctly, the Lee Classic does indeed crimp. I also saw a comment to also apply a bit of nail polish around the primer area to make for a waterproof bullet. Why is there such a price disparity between that RCBS kit and a Lee kit like this?

Wynne, would this PaceSetter Die do what you describe? Or this Lee Deluxe Rifle Die Set which does both neck and full-length sizing? With such dies, why are case trimmers on the market -- eventually they will render a brass unreloadable, right?

You guys are properly helpful for a novice inadvertent posting a thread in the wrong subforum. :D
 
It looks like either of the Lee sets will work just find and I don't know the difference. Someone else might know.

You probably will not need to crimp the bullet in. I never have.

The sealing the primer with nail polish is something I have never done and I have never had a misfire because of it.

Lee products are very good as are RCBS.

Concho Bill
 
Dan1894 said:
If I recall correctly, the Lee Classic does indeed crimp. I also saw a comment to also apply a bit of nail polish around the primer area to make for a waterproof bullet. Why is there such a price disparity between that RCBS kit and a Lee kit like this?

Wynne, would this PaceSetter Die do what you describe? Or this Lee Deluxe Rifle Die Set which does both neck and full-length sizing? With such dies, why are case trimmers on the market -- eventually they will render a brass unreloadable, right?

You guys are properly helpful for a novice inadvertent posting a thread in the wrong subforum. :D
Click to expand...

Case trimming is a necessity with most high powered rifle chamberings due to the somewhat softer and thinner brass of the neck stretching under pressure and friction. If not trimmed to length the excess metal can fill in the chambered chamber mouth and cause excessive pressures.
Rimmed bottle neck cartridges should never be headspaced on the chamber mouth, as some straight case pistol cases such as .45 ACP, 9mm , or the tapered .30 carbine.

For either autoloader or lever action I'd crimp just to be on the safe side, but those lever actions I have used in the past seemed to feed softly enough that it probably isn't necessary unless the brass of the cartridge is fairly soft.
I never crimp my loads for bolt action rifles.

Another thing to consider though is the effect of recoil on cartridges lined up end to end in a tublar magazine. A weak neck tension and no crimp might lead to recoil pushing a bullet deeper into the case causing higher pressure or poor accuracy, or jams perhaps.

Never use pointed bullets.
These plasti tipped pointed bullets made for the lever actions may be safe, but I wouldn't put any faith in them till they've been out a lot longer.
A poorly seated primer in a loose pocket might be more sensitive than a factory seated primer.

Self defense shooting at extended range is uncommon these days, but when you live in the boonies you never can tell.
I remember a early 20th century case of a fellow killing a man who'd threatened him at over one thousand yards.
The victim was riding through a mountain pass headed to the homestead of a aged veteran Civil War sniper. The old man cut loose and nailed him square.
In court his attorney convinced the jurors that such a shot was impossible and that it was a case of a warning shot connecting by chance.

Fact is the old timer didn't actually shoot at the victim, he shot at where he knew the victim would be when the bullet got there.
 
i will try

Dan you asked why the price difference? i will not debate the issue about percieved or real quality. whatever one calls it, quality, or value added marketing will increase demand. one pays more for a caddy than a yugo.

personally, i have used a lee auto prime for years, however it pays to get the aftermarket steel toggle link as the aluminum one is junk. even if you keep it lubed it wears quickly.

i have a lee press which i use to remove primers before tumble cleaning my brass. compared to my rock chucker well its just loose and tinny. the rock chucker is stiffer, heavier, smoother and doesnt jiggle at every joint.

the rcbs powder charger has a cast base, steel chamber with a plastic barrel. the lee all plastic. never used one but i would assume after several years of cutting extruded powder it would be worn out, not to mention having to deal with static cling constantly. as i stated i have used my powder dropper for 40 years, and i shoot alot. i have dreams of some time getting a harrells but the RCBS works so good i can not substanciate the expense.

take a good look at the dies. on the outside, lee is smooth with a nut that has a rubber o-ring channel under it. the RCBS has knurled surfaces on the die, ring, and primer push rod adjusting nuts. once set it can be installed by fingers not a wrench. which is a better method? i dont care! the RCBS just looks more refined. from experience both seem to have the same degree of finishing on the interior. one has to upgrade to a redding to notice a more refined interior.

or maybe down grade to more basic equipment to get better reloads like an arbor press and wilson dies. actually that is a misnomer calling willson dies a downgrade. they have an interior on par with redding but not used on a single stage press. not practical for a 30-30win.

possibly the differences in quality are not relivent to you and if that is the case, the lee is your ticket. one can make successful reloads for a 30-30win on them. just like i said about the good tasty toasted oats!!;)
Fred
 
Eq List

My Equipment list

I started with:
Lee Loader
Plastic Mallet
Herters Scale
Hornady Powder Measure
Hornady Case Trimmer
Hornady Dial Caliper
Hornady Manual

Then Upgaded to

JR2 Press
Lee Auto Prime
RCBS Dies
Ohaus 10-10 scale
Hornady Powder Measure

Currently

RCBS Rockchucker
Lee Autoprime
RCBS, Redding, Wilson Dies, and custom
Ohaus 10-10 Scales
Harrels Measure
Cusom Arbor Press for Wilson Dies

Off my original stuff I still use the Hornady Manual, plastic mallet (to punch out primers), and the dial calipers. I picked the Rockchucker and Ohaus up at yardsales, think I gave $15 each for them. the Harrels came off Ebay, I forget the price but it was a steal. If you buy good quality equipment it will last a lifetime. I have been reloading about 15 years, of the quality stuff I have bought it all still works. the junk is in a landfill somewhere.

again I would start with a manual. dont worry about the make of bullet in the manual, just the configuration and grain weight needs to match. You are going to start low and work up so variations from Manufacturer to manufacturer will be taken care off.

On chrono's, at some point you will want one, spikes in velocity and plateus in velocity tell you a lot if you know what they mean. If you know the max velocity you should get you will know when you are getting close but pressure signs are not aparent yet. this is another indicator there are many you will need to look for. For long range work Muzzle Velocity is needed to run your ballistics charts.

Back to the 30-30, tube mag need a crimp. to do this consitintly the case lengths must match, you will need a trimmer at the minimum, a dial caliper will make life much easier. take the trim lenght from the manual, measure about 20% of your brass, take the shortest measurement off all and trim them all to that length, also very inportant write down what that measurement is, you will need it later. caveat: if the shortest peice of brass is more than a couple of thousands short, trash it, life is too short and brass is cheap.
 
I had not considered eBay for any of this until now. Thanks! Guess I never thought of them considering their sans-firearm policy. I'll have to lurk there every now and again to see what I can pick up on the cheap. I'll be keeping good tasty oats in mind. :D

I read somewhere, I believe a Lyman press manual, that after four case trimmings it's time to discard the case. Roughly how often is a trimming necessary when running at reloading manual max (non +P) and how far back do you have to slack off to mitigate the necessity or to eliminate it? I sure some reloaders with guns chambered for hard to buy brass must do something to keep their brass lasting as indefinitely as possible.
 
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