I can't call my shots with M1A

S

shooter86314

New member
Please don't ban me from the forum!! Don't hate me for shooting a gas gun from the bench.

I am seeking advice from the BR community about how to hold my awkward rifle so I can call my shots. My issue for now is my inability to call my shots, not the accuracy of the rifle.

I have been testing my M1A (308Win) from the bench this year, with little success. I am trying to achieve 5-shot groups that are less than 1 inch. After several months of failure, I decided to try two rifles with less recoil and much better triggers. I shot about .4" at 50 yards with my Win52B and about 3/4" with my light (6 pounds) Rem700 in 257 Roberts at 100 yards. I can call my shots well with the smaller rifles, but I cannot call my shots with my M1A: a few days ago, I fired 35 rounds and called only one shot. When I can call my shots consistently, I will tune for accuracy.

The rifle weighs 12 pounds and has a wooden, match stock. It wears a Leupold 10X silhouette scope with AO and 1-minute dot. My targets are black donuts, 1-1/16" in diameter, with 1/2" wide ring. I shoot from a solid concrete bench. The rifle has the usual accuracy enhancements. I shoot from a Caldwell front rest with large Protektor bag and Caldwell rear bag. The scope is high: my cheek does not touch the stock. I removed both sling swivels. I hold the rifle with moderate firmness and apply low-moderate shoulder pressure. The rifle leaps backward sharply under recoil, which is not severe (not as heavy as that little Roberts), but I do not get that "snapshot" of dot alignment that I get from the smaller rifles and my bullseye pistols.

Can any of you offer some advice that might help me to see the dot? Thankyou.

btw, this is my first post.
 
Welcome to the forum. Im a big m14 guy- one of my favorites. What scope base do you use? That is the problem most times (trust me) what model m1a do you have? What kind of load do you use? Are you holding the forend down? These guns are tricky- there are 5 violent recoil pulses and a scope mount just cant hardly take it. What size groups are you getting?
 
calling shots

What scope base do you use?

My scope mount is an ARMS 18.

That is the problem most times (trust me) what model m1a do you have?
The receiver is SA circa 1985. I made the stock, barreled it, and assembled it.

What kind of load do you use?
I have been using DCM 173 over 41 gr. H4895. Recently, Nosler 155 over 41-42 of IMR4064

Are you holding the forend down? No.

These guns are tricky- there are 5 violent recoil pulses and a scope mount just cant hardly take it.
What size groups are you getting?

Groups range from 1-1/4"-4".

My question is about calling my shots. How to hold the rifle so that I can call my shots.
 
The smith enterprise and sadlak titanium are my choice with the arms as 3rd. Dont guess i know what you mean about "calling your shots" but i can throw a bulk surplus 168hp in a standard m1a and shoot less than 1moa at 200yds with irons. I do it every month at a match and pretty much more than once a week and figure with a scope it should be way better altho i rarely install a scope on any that i send out unless im workin up a load. I do know once you stray very far from a 168gr bullet and 748 powder it changes the recoil pulses and the gun becomes unrepeatable due to hard or soft piston vibrations. These guns are pure physics and the true armorers that pioneered the m14 sub moa movement are long gone now. As far as calling your shots they should all be in the X ring and if you miss do like we do and blame it on anything but yourself.
 
Try some dry firing watching thru your scope and see what that does. Have a friend randomly load it and hand it to you so you dont know if its empty or not and watch your crosshairs. Get a box of federal premium 168smk- if they dont shoot under 1"@100 you need to re-evaluate your setup starting with the gun and scope mount. Have an old ironsighter try it and see what he can do with it without a scope. Just gotta start in trying something
 
blame game

Nobody shoots a perfect shot every time he pulls the trigger. When I don't shoot well, I look to myself first before I search elsewhere for a solution. I don't pretend that every shot is a centered X, and that is why I am trying to get to the root of my inability to call a shot with my scoped M1A. When I can call my shot honestly, then I can evaluate the impact for correct zero, wind, light, position, scope problem, ammo, etc.

This question isn't about equipment; it is about shooting position and technique.
 
But it is about equipment. Maybe you should peruse the m1a forum. There are a couple guys over there like bambam, gus fischer and art luppochino- world class m14 guys. Maybe they can help you call your shots cause i dont guess i still understand. If you miss the X theres 2 reasons- you and the equipment. If you do the things i talked about youll see some equipment probs right off the bat. If you pull the trigger and jump up and say i missed, 2" to the right then you need more practice i suspect then we're back to what i suggested earlier.
 
Come on the m14 is the way to go. I love my vast collection. Been the AR10 route and gotta stick with my trusty steel warrior. A properly built m14 is a work of art in my opinion! But even the preload on the forend or something as simple as overlooking the stock ferrule procedure can result in a "normal" 1.5 moa gun. Theres soooo much skill goes into building one youll only see a handfull of names on the true winning guns- and i assure you its priceless to get to shoot one. Even bedding material makes a difference- mind boggling when you look at it
 
+1 on Dusty's advice, check out the M-14 Forums. The first thing that I would do is to put a cheek rest on the stock, you can't call a shot if your head is moving about independent of the rifle. I use one of the wrap around Blackhawk cheek rest that is held on with Velcro straps, that way I can take it off when shooting with irons. I hope that this is helpful.

M-14s Rock!

Dick
 
. . call my shot.

I thought my first foray into the benchrest world would be more enlightening.

I will restate my question in my first post: Can any of you offer some advice that might help me to see the dot? Thankyou.

I hate to be rude and argumentative, but readers who don't understand that basic shooting concept, calling the shot, might should sit on the bench and don't hijack my thread. My question is not about equipment, ammo, or gunsmithing; it's about bench technique for heavy recoiling rifles. Sorry.
 
shooter86314 said:
I thought my first foray into the benchrest world would be more enlightening.

I will restate my question in my first post: Can any of you offer some advice that might help me to see the dot? Thankyou.

I hate to be rude and argumentative, but readers who don't understand that basic shooting concept, calling the shot, might should sit on the bench and don't hijack my thread. My question is not about equipment, ammo, or gunsmithing; it's about bench technique for heavy recoiling rifles. Sorry.
Click to expand...

nothing but rude bois here

and condescending to boot

They COULD fix you, they just don't want to

They will do nothing but argue with you

and change the subject.....

and did I say "condescending?"

sorry

al
 
I'm not a fan of caldwell rests some are way to sloppy with quite a bit of movement .
Try some good sand bags for a change and a firm cheek weld , hold down on the stock, just like shooting Iron sights.
see how the groups are. a good cheek pad also helps a lot.
the 14 or M1A is tough on scopes. I hope you have a good rugged one. also the scope mount you have may be part of the problem.
There are several different kinds out there. I hope you have one that also attaches to the clip slot in the receiver. The steel mount seem to work better then the aluminum ones.
 
Try the dry fire technique. Sorry youre not getting the info you need. If we even touch our guns we can call our shots. We just call it sliding down the ranking list. You can usually hear shots being called by loud expletives
 
Please realize that you are asking a question that is largely foreign to BR shooting, in which there is no need to "call the shot" because the sight picture should be so perfect when you pull the trigger that any deviation from perfect just can't be seen. The fit and handling of the rifle/rest system should make calling the shot irrelevant.

If by "call the shot" you mean simply to see and remember the last sight picture before it's gone due to recoil, then focus on follow through. Dry fire practice will help. Train yourself to avoid blinking, and stare through the scope, or where the scope was, throughout and beyond recoil.

If by "call the shot" you mean to successfully predict from your last sight picture where the bullet strikes the target, then you need to fix the rifle/rest first. It isn't possible to call a shot according to this second definition unless the rifle shoots better than the deviation you call.

Hope this helps,
Keith
 
Let me see if this is what your asking to help out.
You can normally call your shots. As in pull the trigger and say where it will hit that moment. Am I correct?
Calling shots are what a lot of long range tactical shooters do. They need to know where that bullet will hit before it hits so they can prepare for the next target.
I would check the simple things 1st like remove the scope and try the old iron sights. You could have a scope not holding zero or a not so good mount. Either one of those will throw your shots all over the place.
It could be your not sitting behind the rifle properly and causing it to jump real bad. When you fire does the rifle jump all over the place and you are moving it around to find your target again?

I am not an M1 guy at all but mounts, scopes, technique and discipline will cause problems with any rifle no matter what it is if there is something wrong with it.
It cant hurt to jump over to a M1 forum web site and ask the folks who know more about the specific rifle.

I will say I would only try one thing at a time. If you change several things at once you wont know what the true problem was.

Sorry I couldnt be more help.
 
Both Dusty and Paul are right with the various points they make. If your rifle hasn't been "accurized" by someone who knows the demands and quirks of M14/M1As then it will likely be a 1.5 MOA gun a best.

Good on you making your own stock. Did you do the bedding as well?

The article below has a lot of great info on loading for the rifle.

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

Good Shooting

Rich
 
I truly appreciate the new comments and suggestions.

Mrspradlin said: "It could be your not sitting behind the rifle properly and causing it to jump real bad. When you fire does the rifle jump all over the place and you are moving it around to find your target again?"

that's exactly right. it jumps and it doesn't easily return to center.

cheekrest.
Caldwell rest isn't great, but it's pretty solid.

the gang at M14 forum had some unorthodox ideas about rifle rests and setup for the M1A.
The ARMS 18 is considered a good scope mount. hooks to clip guide and front of receiver.
maybe I should switch scopes, get the Leupold checked out
 
Are you leaving the lock screw for your front rest loose and using the elevation wheel to adjust elevation? I seems as though this is the way to use this type of rest, but experienced BR shooters usually just adjust the rest height when setting up and keep the screw locked down while shooting. Elevation adjustments from shot to shot are made by moving the rifle forward and back, and either squeezing the rear bag or using the rear leveling screw. Some front rests are quite sloppy when the coarse elevation is not locked down.

Other than that, M1A's are more difficult than most to shoot from a rest. I can get mine to shoot around an inch at 100 yds. shooting rested on a rolled up mat. Shooting off a good front and rear rest doesn't help a great deal. Mine tends to jump quite a bit too, but that doesn't keep it from shooting.

"Calling Shots" in the traditional sense is somewhat foreign to benchrest shooters. If you can't get the trigger to break without disturbing the sight picture, either your trigger is too hard or your setup is just unsteady. Whether you grip the rifle tightly or lightly, it is most important to do it the same every time. If you do grip tightly, be sure that you are not pushing the forend downward or sideways in the front rest bag.
 
Are you holding the forend down? No.
Click to expand...
I would try 2 methods. 1. Forearm on the bag, with hand holding forearm just behind the bag/rest. 2. Hold the forearm with hand, place hand on bag.
 
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