HOW TO USE A TUNER, Part 4

Gene Beggs

Active member
Good morning gentlemen.

We have now covered tuner basics and learned the procedure for getting our rifle in tune, now let's move on to the real 'nitty gritty' of the subject and answer the BIG question;

"Which way do you move the darn thing, and how far do you move it when DA goes up 250 feet, 500 or even 1000?"


I've heard this question a hundred times or more and have told many exactly how to do it, but my advice usually goes in one ear and out the other and I am dismissed as just another crackpot that doesn't know what he is talking about. Here is the truth.

Let's say that during the extra three minutes alloted for match one, we followed the procedure outlined in part 2 and got our rifle perfectly in tune and noted density altitude and tuner setting.

We are back at the line for the second match and notice that temperature has increased by five degrees and a glance at the DA meter shows an increase of 500 feet. This means our bullet will encounter less atmospheric resistance as it accellerates down the bore. In-bore time will be decreased, which will result in bullet exit before the barrel comes to a complete stop.

In years past, we would reduce the powder charge to compensate, but today, with the advent of tuners, we can compensate by increasing the frequency of the barrel. That's right! Moving the tuner toward the breech end of the barrel increases vibration frequency and vice versa. If you have trouble remembering which way to go the following gouge may help.

"DA goes up, frequency must go up to stay in tune."

"Okay",,you say,,,"Now I know which way to go with the darn thing; if temp goes up, relative humidity goes down, density altitude goes up, and Wilbur's blood pressure increases (sorry Wilbur, couldn't resist:D), turn the tuner toward the breech end of the barrel, (Up in, down & out) but how much, Vern,,, how much?" :mad:

With the tuners I have been working with in the tunnel for the past several weeks, the range is one revolution. That's right, if there were enough threads, and you turned the tuner out through several revolutions, you would encounter a sweet spot every 360 degrees. Expressed in density altitude, this corresponds to two thousand foot increments. Let's say you have your rifle perfectly in tune at sea level; the tuner is set at 12:00 o'clock. You then magically levitate you and your rifle to a density altitude of 2000 feet making no changes whatsoever to the load or tuner; your rifle will still be in perfect tune.

So,,,,,let's say our rifle was perfectly in tune an hour ago when DA was 3000 feet and the tuner set at 12:00 o'clock. Now, an hour later, DA has increased to 3500. It will be necessary to turn the tuner IN to 9:00 o'clock to remain in tune.

Now,, that wasn't so hard; was it? Of course not. DA goes up, tuner goes in. "up & in, down & out"

Now with what I've told you, can you tell me what the formula is for adjusting the tuner throughout the day? ;) :D

Later,,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene,

Many thanks for your research efforts and time taken to post. You are a credit to the sport.

I will be getting in touch with you in the next few weeks.

Take care!

Pete Landers
 
Gene,
To clarify, the change in tuner setting is with your particular setup, right? Perhaps you might favor us by listing that setup, including the weight of the tuner, thread pitch, as well as barrel length and contour. BTW you could use air density just as well as Density altitude couldn't you? I believe that those meters are a little less pricey.

Afterthought:
If you keep your load constant, is that by weight or volume?
 
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Gene,

When mine gets here I'll have Mickey put it on the bbl that he is going to chamber for the 6 Beggs. I was wondering if the bbl would need to be threaded for the tuner or can it be switched to other barrels? I thought you mentioned that it attached with oposing screws, so could I put it on myself? Hope you forgive my ignorance I'm plowing new ground. Many thanks
 
When mine gets here I'll have Mickey put it on the bbl that he is going to chamber for the 6 Beggs. I was wondering if the bbl would need to be threaded for the tuner or can it be switched to other barrels? I thought you mentioned that it attached with oposing screws, so could I put it on myself? Hope you forgive my ignorance I'm plowing new ground. Many thanks

Jerry, Mickey will install it for you. It requires a little bit of lathe work, but knowing Mickey, I'll bet he can do in fifteen minutes. :D

Gene Beggs
 
Good morning gentlemen.
We are back at the line for the second match and notice that temperature has increased by five degrees and a glance at the DA meter shows an increase of 500 feet. This means our bullet will encounter less atmospheric resistance as it accellerates down the bore. In-bore time will be decreased, which will result in bullet exit before the barrel comes to a complete stop.
Later, Gene Beggs
Hi Gene,
Why do you assume that the air density/atmospheric resistance inside the barrel has any relationship to the measured outside air density?

In-barrel air density would certainly be related to barrel temperature. This assumption would only be correct if the barrel was at exactly ambient temperature. Not very likely.

In-barrel air density/atmospheric resistance ahead of the bullet would be greatly affected by some of the hot gasses behind the bullet leaking around the bullet to some extent as it travels down the bore. In the published photos that I have seen, there is always some hot gas exiting from the muzzle BEFORE the bullet exits.

In my opinion, external air density would not be related to in-barrel conditions unless the barrel temperature were exactly at ambient AND the bullet to barrel seal were perfect with no leakage.

So what am I missing?
Dave
 
Dave

I may be wrong, but the air density at a particular location is constant at that time. It is atmospheric pressure and that applys to the firing line, the barrel, and the pop can on your bench.......All of which are vented to the atmosphere. I see your point...........Hot air in the barrel, but the barometric pressure is the same as the air outside the rifle.
Bryan
 
Bryan,
Just speculating. The air density in the barrel might be lower than that outside the barrel.

On the other hand, leakage gasses inside the barrel combined with their momentary compression between the advancing bullet & the muzzle outlet, which is not zero restriction, may create short time in-the-barrel-ahead-of-the -bullet pressures & gas density which are well above the outside density-altitude pressures.

I just think that applying external density-altitude numbers to in-barrel conditions is questionable.

Does anyone have any good data that shows time in the barrel vs density-altitude?

Gene did say that density-altitude affected the in barrel time of the bullet.

Dave
 
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Bryan,
Just speculating. The air density in the barrel might be lower than that outside the barrel.


Gene did say that density-altitude affected the in barrel time of the bullet.

Dave
Think about this; regardless of the DA of the air in the bore, the air in the bore has to push against the DA (air thickness) outside the barrel to let the bullet exit the bore. This is the bigger issue.
 
So the DA outside the barrel constitutes a "back pressure" which the bullet & air/gasses in front of it must push against? So, less density = less in-barrel time. Thanks for the explanation.

Dave
 
So the DA outside the barrel constitutes a "back pressure" which the bullet & air/gasses in front of it must push against? So, less density = less in-barrel time. Thanks for the explanation.

Dave
Dave, can and does, but don't take that to the bank. They may not cash it.

Air density does have some effect though on any object passing through it. Golf ball, football, ping-pong ball and bullet.

If the surrounding air didn't have an effect on the bullet we wouldn't need wind flags. We can easily see the effect of a stiff breeze on the side of a bullet, do we not think it would not effect the front of the bullet.

Wilbur, in go da good air, out go da bad air. Comprande'?
 
Jerry,
I can now see the thinking behind this theory.
However - I repeat "Does anyone have any "real" data to show the affect of density altitude on in-barrel bullet time" & thus position of the muzzle at bullet exit.
Dave
 
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This is great...it's just like getting a new fridge, washer, etc...when I was a kid. Didn't know how they made that box but it sure was fun to play with until it wore out. Kinda sounds like barrels and tuner doesn't it......were just kids having fun. :D :D

Hovis
 
I may be wrong, but the air density at a particular location is constant at that time. It is atmospheric pressure and that applys to the firing line, the barrel, and the pop can on your bench.......All of which are vented to the atmosphere. I see your point...........Hot air in the barrel, but the barometric pressure is the same as the air outside the rifle.
Bryan

Bryan, you are exactly right and well stated. A good analogy.

Gene Beggs
 
Jerry,
I can now see the thinking behind this theory.
However, I repeat "Does anyone have any "real" data to show the affect of density altitude on in-barrel bullet time & thus position of the muzzle at bullet exit?"
Dave

Dave, by 'real data', I suppose you are referring to numbers, graphs, osciloscope traces and such. No,,, I don't have any of those but I definitely have 'real' proof of such obtained while actually shooting in the tunnel on a daily basis. If you want numbers, I can offer the following.

I cannot tell you the exact frequency at which the barrel vibrates on my HV rifle, 'Ol' Bud', I don't care, but I can tell you exactly how far I have to move the tuner when the density altitude goes up 500 feet; a quarter of a turn in. "So,, what if the DA goes down 500 feet?" you ask. A quarter turn out.

Hope this helps

Gene Beggs
 
This is great...it's just like getting a new fridge, washer, etc...when I was a kid. Didn't know how they made that box but it sure was fun to play with until it wore out. Kinda sounds like barrels and tuner doesn't it......were just kids having fun. :D :D

Hovis

Hovis,,, you are right, we're just kids having fun, but isn't that what life's all about? I tried growing up once and didn't like it. At about the age of fifty, I decided it would be much better to lighten up, become a kid again, have fun and quit taking everything so seriously. I have been much happier ever since. :D :D

We in the sport who provide fine products and services to our fellow shooter are not simply selling barrels, actions, triggers etc., what we are REALLY selling is happiness! Don't you agree? :D :D

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Do Y'all really...I mean sho' nuff now...the air in the barrel...??

Wilbur, your question is one I have heard many times before and I'm not surprised that you and so many others are unconvinced, at this time, that what I am saying is true. If all benchrest shooters had a PHD in aeronautical engineering, this DA, barrel vibration, tuner thing would have been solved and completely understood by one and all, long ago.

Jerry Sharrett, quickly understood what I have been saying because he has a background in flying. Long ago, he came to appreciate just how powerful air can be. Those of us who have spent a good portion of our lives airborne in various types of aircraft will tell you that air, even though very lightweight compared to everything else, is very powerful when compressed and/or accelerated. Just think of how powerful a jet of air is from a nozzle with only 100 psi behind it.

Think about this; a bullet at rest, confined within the barrel, accelerates from zero to around mach 2.7 in the length of the barrel. The bullet must push out, against the weight of the atmosphere, that air present in the bore at the moment of ignition, and even though that air may be small in volume and weighs almost nothing, it is still matter, and there is only one way for it to go; out the muzzle. The heavier the atmosphere, the more resistance the bullet encounters as it accelerates resulting in greater in-bore time.

If we tune our rifle under such conditions and the weight of the atmosphere decreses, i.e., density altitude goes up, the bullet encounters less resistance and accelerates quicker, which reduces in-bore time. If we do not detect and compensate for the decrease in air density by reducing the charge or increasing the frequency of the barrel with a tuner, our bullet will exit before the muzzle comes to a complete stop.

Later,,

Gene Beggs
 
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