How do you or how did you shoot older 8208?

C

conrad

Guest
I just came into a couple of jugs of older pulldown 8208. White jugs orange label 18167. It will shoot 53cl at about 3230 and 56 clicks at 3440.

So, is it best with light or heavy neck tension. Light medium or heavy jam.

Where seems to do best?

TIA

edit---sorry
 
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Sounds like a 6 PPC and volumetric powder measure numbers. Those are common numbers. Of course, in a 6 PPC, you can't get 53 grains of any kind of powder in the case.

Well, I guess you could get lead or tungsten powder like they use in golf clubs in, but that'd kinda defeat the purpose. :cool:
 
Gary Walters said:
I found very light neck tension worked best for me. Others could have had a different experience.
Click to expand...

I also shoot Lot 18166, which is very close in performance to 18167. My setup is: Boat tail bullets, very light neck tension, seating depth somewhat off of jam, maybe .005-.008. It is important to work up the best seating depth (follow the advice from Bart, or Tony Boyer's book, see Chicken or egg thread). Once I have a good seating depth for a lot of bullets, I rarely mess with it for the season. I like this powder a lot and will shoot it until I run out.
 
I've shot about 50 pounds of lot 18167 since 2002...

... in fact I've had my best success with that lot of 8208 in a .262 neck 6 PPC. I still have a few pounds or so that will probably last me the rest of my shooting lifetime.

My set up has basically been anywhere from .008 to .012 off the jam with 68 gr. Hottenstein boattail bullets through 1-in-14 Krieger .236 or .237 barrels. I use light neck tension (.257 button on necks cut to .0081 to .0083). The powder charge is usually a half of a number off of where it will shoot and that charge would normally have to be dropped one half number at some time throughout the day (and only one time). The load is 53.5 to 53.0 on my measure which weighs 28.7 at the low end to 29.5 at the high end. The chronograph shows this load and bullet combination to be somewhere around 3,250 fps. It seems to be just slightly slower than the old T-32 that a lot of the benchrest shooters like to shoot in the late 90's or a little later. Compare that with what is attainable with N133 up near the 30 grain mark where the velocity is somewhere around 3,420 fps or so.

I once had a 100-pound keg of DuPont 8208M that was lot number #45710. Some shooters used to refer to this as "virgin T". It was really hot and shot best at or slightly below 28.5 grains. It was "spikey" and would leave you at the most inopportune times. #18167 is pulled powder and is slower and not as "spikey"; and is much more predictable. From what I have read the DuPont 8208M was what the military was using in its M-16 tracer rounds until around 1970. I'm not sure what is loaded in the military rounds today, but it is my understanding that "T" was repackaged 8208M surplus. Most "older" 8208 available today is pulled from surplus M-16 rounds (not sure if it is tracer or standard rounds). It is my belief that the success of the pulled powders in their use in the 6PPC is because the powder has been somewhat "dumbed-down" depending on how it was stored in the loaded rounds. This dumbing-down may be why the pulled 8208 is not as "spikey" as the stuff that was available in the original 100-pound kegs. Because there were different ways that surplus loaded rounds were stored, there is also some variability in the different jugs that you may be able to get of the pulled powder.

I have seen different jugs of #18167 which would produce velocities as much as 120 fps different with the same bullet and seating depth. I once fired 10 different lot numbers of 8208 through my rail gun at 200 yards to test velocities and grouping capability. It was eye-opening to see how much variability there is between even the same lot numbers of 8208. Point being you need to test the lot number and work with the tune to find the set up and load ranges that work. One other thing that I have noticed when tuning the gun using the "ladder method" that Tony, Bart and Jack Neary describe, is that a load may shoot quite well in light conditions with a seating depth farther away from the jam (.020 to .025 off hard jam), but will not buck wind conditions well back that far. Usually when the wind starts blowing I like to move the bullet closer to the jam around .005 to .010 off. It is often good to find those two points where a certain load will perform so that you have reference points to change to.

The thing I've noticed with 8208 is that will either shoot well in certain temperature, humidity and altitude conditions or it won't shoot at all. I have never been able to tune 8208 in when it won't shoot like you can seem to do with N133. And normally it doesn't seem to shoot well in cooler conditions. The best that I have seen it shoot is when it was so hot and humid that it wasn't comfortable to be outside in that weather. When it is below 60 degrees or above 60 percent humidity (unless it is unmercifully hot), I have seen N133 shoot better. Like all powders, you need to watch how groups form and how bullet holes look in order to get a feel for when the load is going to go away. Usually when the bullet holes get really small and/or you shoot a group that is better than what the range will typically give you, that load is just about to go away and you have to change something (usually go down a half number with this lot of 8208). I have not seen it shoot very well at really much more or much less than the range I state above.

I believe that you need two powders to shoot competitively with; although in the last few years guys shooting really astronomical loads of N133 in the PPC seem to be able to tune these animals in almost any condition. I still like old #18167 (which seems to shoot exactly the same as #18166, and is a little hotter than #18165), and it has done okay from me. But, I still shoot a lot of N133 here in the Northern Midwest where we often shoot when the mercury is between zero to 40 F degrees . When I load for those conditions, I usually go tighter on the neck tension (.256 button) and somewhere around 30 grains of N133. I have never seen 8208 shoot even decently well when it is really cold outside.

I have only shot a little of the new LT powder out there, but it seems to act a lot like the older 8208 and some lots of 322. It sure is a good thing that we have this alternative to go to with the availability of N133 being "iffy" lately. Hope to shoot more in 2014; just picked up a group of new barrels to try out. We'll see how the old 8208 works in them.

Hope this helps.
 
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I am constantly

amazed when I read posts on this Forum.

How the HELL do you guys find this stuff out?

Retain that info?

There must have been one HELL of a lot of that GREAT powder bought in large quantities to have enough to understand it's quirks. I see now how the GREAT shooters are seperated from us that are so-so.....................

What I do know is I have shot a condition that NO ONE else would because you could maybe get 2 shots off and have to wait 5 minutes for the condition to come back. Then hope and pray you could finish off your group. But man did that condition work for me..................

I need to move from this God forbidden frozen land. Maybe the Lottery tonite will allow me to................ LOL

Calvin
 
Great writeup Joe. New shooters note, Joe put about a book chapter or two in his post above. Read it carefully 2-3 times even if you only shoot V133 or LT-32.

I may even drag out a few jugs of 8208 and go back to shooting it some more. I still have some 12020, some 12188, some 18165, and yes Joe, I still have some of the 45710 I sold you (the 8208M). According to Kenny Maagard (sp) at ADI the 8208(M) was a specialty coating of Ethylene Dimethacrylate which added to its long-term stability. He says ADI has a quantity of Ethylene Dimethacrylate and may use it in some later project.

Oh, I have a few jugs of 8208 lot WCC6167 (Winchester made 8208??).
 
I have some A068 WCC6151. How does it rate with other lots?
 
sambubba1 said:
I have some A068 WCC6151. How does it rate with other lots?
Click to expand...

Bill Krazenski, Allied Sports, had several jugs that was marked A068, that was about 10-12 years ago. It was really slow compared to T/T32/T322. Clarence Hammonds bought 16 jugs of it and soon sold it because it was too slow for his liking. I had some at one time. I'll see if I can find the chrono data.

The WCC6151 on the end, again, makes me wonder if it was made by Winchester.

Edit- Here is some comparison data out of my 2011 log;

21" Hart 14:1 barrel, 67g FB bullet, 29.5 grains on all loads-
ES/Vel/SD.Temp 65F
6mm PPC

VV 133/04 18/3320/9
VV 133/07 33/3385/16
AAC122910 25/3250/13
IMR8208XBR Lot2 15/3165/7
T32 (original) 19/3380/9
8208 Lot 45710 59/3340/31
8208 Lot 18165 16/3280/8
IMR4895 38/3200/14
AA2015-10 37/3240/18
LT-32 Lot2 65/3375/23
8208 Lot 12020 31/3265/14
A068 TW18145 42/3282/6
 
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Joe;
As usual, always great info from you.Some of us put it into our "favorites." I had some 8208 years ago I got rid of because it was so blasted slow. One of our then eastern region shooters ended up with it and had to use 31 grains to get anything done. I might add, that I had some of 18122 that I was quite fond of.
Again I say, thanks for your intelligence on this matter.

Joe
 
Thanks a lot for the info Jerry.

Craig



JerrySharrett said:
Bill Krazenski, Allied Sports, had several jugs that was marked A068, that was about 10-12 years ago. It was really slow compared to T/T32/T322. Clarence Hammonds bought 16 jugs of it and soon sold it because it was too slow for his liking. I had some at one time. I'll see if I can find the chrono data.

The WCC6151 on the end, again, makes me wonder if it was made by Winchester.

Edit- Here is some comparison data out of my 2011 log;

21" Hart 14:1 barrel, 67g FB bullet, 29.5 grains on all loads-
ES/Vel/SD.Temp 65F
6mm PPC

VV 133/04 18/3320/9
VV 133/07 33/3385/16
AAC122910 25/3250/13
IMR8208XBR Lot2 15/3165/7
T32 (original) 19/3380/9
8208 Lot 45710 59/3340/31
8208 Lot 18165 16/3280/8
IMR4895 38/3200/14
AA2015-10 37/3240/18
LT-32 Lot2 65/3375/23
8208 Lot 12020 31/3265/14
A068 TW18145 42/3282/6
Click to expand...
 
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