How do I know?

M

model14

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I am brand new to this forum and brand new to benchrest shooting. I recently purchased a used Remington 700 VLS .223 at the local gun store and put a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20 power scope on it. I made my own trigger adjustments (3 lb pull). I am an experienced reloader, mainly revolver/pistol. I was very fortunate to find this rifle because it is very accurate for not having been modified. I am currently shooting Nosler 55 BT's in front of 27 grns of Varget (3250 fps). I am averaging .35", 5 shot groups, at 100 yards. pretty consistently. Because I want to get even better at shooting accurately (I am retired, have the time, and I love the challenge), I have ordered a lighter, more precise trigger assembly, and I am going to spend more time blueprinting my cartridge loads. I already tried Spear 52 grn MatchKings and H335 powder (recommended by Spear) with less than satisfactory results. I am now looking to try Hornady V-Max bullets and VV N135 powder; and weight sorting my cases, etc.

Here is my question:

As I approach the .3" and smaller group size accuracy, how do I know if it is my own ability limiting the performance, or the rifle and cartridge combination? As I look through the scope and make the trigger squeeze, the only thing I feel I could improve on is more mental focus (my breathing is good, the cross hairs are steady and I am getting what I believe is a proper straight-back trigger pull with good follow-through). My groups are consistent with a flyer being a rare event. Where do I go from here? How can I benchmark my progress? If I try a new cartridge combination and it is not causing improvement, how do I not it is not me being at my limit of ability? How can I find my limits?

This is an important question for me and I would appreciate your experiences in this area. How do you know your limits, or maybe there are none.\Thanks.
 
If you aren't shooting over wind flags, that would be the first thing I'd suggest. If your rifle is consistently shooting in the .3's, wind flags will help explain what causes the occasional flyers that you are getting. I've had guys come into the shop and tell me that their rifle shoots up a storm one day and then the next day they can't get two shots to touch. Very seldom are they shooting over wind flags. There is still wind on a calm day and it will move the bullet. I've seen tails hang straight down and the wind flag change directions. The bullet sometimes will change where it hits and sometimes it won't. Very seldom do we get light conditions in the area of the country where I live.

Wind flags are a must.
 
It seems to me that you are shooting at the limit of your equipment, and exceptionally well for a factory rifle with only a trigger adjustment, well enough that I hesitate to suggest that you float and bed it. You will enjoy the trigger. As Mike wrote, there is a whole world of information to be had from shooting over wind flags. Another thing that you may want to try, emulating standard practice in short range Benchrest, is to get set up so that you can load at the range. As ambient conditions change, it has been my experience that, loads must also, if peak tune is to be maintained. (I'm talking paper punching here.) Another thing that will help, over the long haul, is to start logging everything in a note book. My range notes always include temperature and humidity, from an inexpensive unit that I picked up at Radio Shack years ago. What kind of rest setup are you using?
 
In addition to the windflags already mentioned, I would get some Match bullets in 52-53grs. I would also try VV N-133 and/or H322. Those powders have a proven record for accuracy in the .223. At least they do in mine:D I can instantly tell the difference in my rifle between match bullets and a hunting type bullet. The BT's are some good bullets though.
 
Other than windflags I wouldn't do anything more with your combo. I don't know of anybody that can agg. in the 3s with your equip.
Butch
 
Thanks for the inputs. Here is what I am doing to try and get into the sub .3 group range:

Wind flags (have to learn how to use them)
Improved trigger assembly (on order from Sinclair)
Trim, then sort brass by weight (completed to +/- .1 grain)

My current best load is Varget and Nosler 55 BT. Can't get either of these right now, and I am out. I found some Hdy 55 V-Match and some VV N135. I will see how this does. I currently seat to .01-.015" in to the rifling. I will try backing that out .005" at a time.

practice, practice, practice. I am lucky to have a nice State DNR range within 15 minutes of my house, with 25,50, and 100 yard ranges (Sharonville Range). 40 minutes away is a 200 yard range.

I love this sport.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Other than windflags I wouldn't do anything more with your combo. I don't know of anybody that can agg. in the 3s with your equip.
Butch
Click to expand...

I think I am with Butch on this one. When you say it aggs in the 3's. Explain please. Can it/you shoot five targets, five shots each, measure to nearest .001", add them together and average and then still be in the .3's. :cool: Man how much you want for that rifle.:D Looks like I been wasting my money on full race bench guns. I bet if you get some bullets made on J4 jackets it will agg in the .2's. :) Seriously, get some wind flags, learn to use them and BR quality bullets.

Donald
 
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Other than windflags I wouldn't do anything more with your combo. I don't know of anybody that can agg. in the 3s with your equip.
Butch
In my experience this is the essence of the truth

BA
 
I doubt you will get much better results with your current equipment no matter what you try, but a couple of things you might try are Berger 52 grain bullets and either neck sizing with Wilson hand dies or a custom made sizing die that closely fits your chamber.

If you can truly agg .35 for five 5 shot groups with a factory gun you are not likely to get any better no matter what you try.
 
I agree with Butch and Steve. I think the only thing you'll find, is that some components will make the load more consistant (eliminate them odd fliers because of bullets, etc). Windflags like everyone suggested would be on my list. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds in 223 and I have found that VV133 and VV135 to be exceptional with some custom (berger or others) bullets. Hornday V-max 50gr bullets I have found to also be very good. With the combo/accuracy your getting, I just don't think there is much room for improvement....just consistancy.

Hovis
 
Here are the results of my last 10 groups:
06/27/09
5 fouling rounds
5 at .307"
5 at .369"
5 at .651" (without flyer would have been about .350")
5 at .369"
Wind conditions calm
06/29/09
5 fouling rounds (used to chrono velocity at 3250 fps)
5 at .338"
5 at .526" (no flyer, probably wind)
5 at .369"
5 at .369"
Wind 10-15 mph (about 5-10 across range). Used two wind flags to wait for lulls as best I could.

I measure groups by using a drafting Circle Template. I fit the smallest circle around the bullet holes and then subtract .224". The circles are in 1/32" graduations.

Although my 700 VLS has a stock barrel and trigger, it has been bedded around the recoil lug and front stock holdown screw. I don't think Remington does this except for the 40X's, so I assume the previous owner did the bedding.

I have never fired a rifle before from benchrest until I bought this rifle 6 weeks ago. I have been shooting a .357 Magnum S&W 6" revolver with a 3.5-12X Burris scope at 100 yards for the past 3 months (about 2000 rounds). With the Smith I have achieved 2 to 3" MOA, with an occasional sub 2" MOA (1 1/4" one time). My friend who is an experience benchrest shooter, believes the Smith was good preparation for my trigger control with the rifle. Believe me, if you want to shoot a .357 magnum revolver accurately at near max loads on a 100 yard range, you need good trigger control.

I appreciate everyones input on this unusual rifle. I just received my new trigger and I am now blueprinting my cases. The best groups I have shot are with H335 and Sierra 52 grain Match King HPBT's (several in the 1's). However, the bore fouling is so bad with this combo, I have to clean the bore and let it cool down every 10 or so rounds. I am not going to do that, so I have been using the 55 grain Nosler BT's and Varget. However, no Varget, no Nosler's, so I am going to try VV N135 with some 55 V-Max's (I just found 100).

I realize that I am probably approaching my limit with this rifle, but I am learning benchrest techniques (case preps, trigger pull, wind reading, etc.), so it is still very interesting to me. I have no illusions, if I decide to go for benchrest competition I will purchase the appropriate rifle. I see that many good ones are for sale used at under $3000. I currently have about $1100 in my rifle scope and trigger.

Thanks all for really interesting and informative inputs. I will let you know how the new trigger works out.

If anyone in Michigan who lives near Jackson or Ann Arbor, would like to try this exceptional factory rifle out, let me know,
 
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