How can that be? - a 204 question

D

drover

Member
I have yet to read an article on the 204 Hornady that has not commented that one of its great attributes is that due to the lack of recoil you can see your own hits/misses. I owned identical Cooper Varminters, one in 204 and the other in 223, if there was any difference in recoil I could not detect it. If there is something here I am missing I sure would like to know what it is.

My question is this - Using identical rifles, except for the caliber, if it is possible to see the shot impact with the 204 they why would it not be possible to see one's impact with the 223 Rem? The 204 Hornady and the 223 Rem using 40 gr bullets use virtually the same amount of powder and the 204 is loaded to a higher pressure than the 223, if anything the 204 should have slightly more recoil . Running the JBM ballistic tables shows identical recoil figures for both cartridges, even when using the 32 gr bullet in the 204 Hornady it only decreases recoil figures by one-half pound.

Thanks, drover
 
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Perhaps the writers are being paid by the word and adding that bit of irrelevent information makes the article longer and he gets more money?
On the more practical side, if the writer is one who usually only shoots deer caliber (.243 Win.) and above and this is first try of the lighter caliber he is probably quite intrigued that he can see the impact of the bullet.
 
Weight is the key

kansasvet said:
Perhaps the writers are being paid by the word and adding that bit of irrelevent information makes the article longer and he gets more money?
On the more practical side, if the writer is one who usually only shoots deer caliber (.243 Win.) and above and this is first try of the lighter caliber he is probably quite intrigued that he can see the impact of the bullet.
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In my stable of varminters there is a .17 rem weighing in at 14lb a .222 rem at 13.6lb and a .25/06 tipping the scales at 15.4lb and I can see the shots appear in the targets at 100 and 200 yards as well as in the field. The key is if they weigh enough they disrupt the sighting plane less.
Andy.
 
I have never owned a rifle heavy enough that I could see bullet impact in caliber.243 and larger. It is easy with the .204,
.221, .222, .223 and .22-250 when they have varmint weight barrels. The .204, .221, .222, and .223 are all easy to see impact with only sporter barrels
Another factor is shooting off a solid front rest and using a rear bag, everything gets easier to see.
 
kansasvet said:
I have never owned a rifle heavy enough that I could see bullet impact in caliber.243 and larger. It is easy with the .204,
.221, .222, .223 and .22-250 when they have varmint weight barrels. The .204, .221, .222, and .223 are all easy to see impact with only sporter barrels
Another factor is shooting off a solid front rest and using a rear bag, everything gets easier to see.
Click to expand...

IMO you hit the nail on the head, I could have written those very words myself since my experience mirrors yours.

I truly think that most folks believe that they are able to see more hits with the 204 because they have read, or heard it repeated, so many times that they expect to see their hits and as a consequence they do see more hits because they expect to. If they paid as much attention with the other small calibers they would see the same thing.

drover
 
Back in 2010/11 I had a 222 barrel on my XP-100 13# BR rifle. Shooting 30 gr Berger moly coated tips at 3800+ fps. Recoil was very light. When I used a Leupold 8.5-25 X50 Long Range Scope I could usually see the bullet in flight BEFORE it hit the target. I usually could pick up the bullet when it got out to about 125+ yards. I think the muzzle flash blocked the sighting till then.

Next step I built up a 25 BR with a 29" heavy barrel sporting a muzzle break and a 42 power NightForce scope. Shooting at 300 yards I can usually pick up the bullet in flight before it hits, or misses, the target.

If you have a very low recoil rifle and a very good scope on bright days you can often see the bullet in flight. With the higher power scopes being only in focus at the longer ranges you will not pick up the bullets until the bullet is very near the target.

I have a 375-284 that I have been shooting at 100 yards with a Harrell Muzzle brake. When I had it in my very heavy long range stock the rifle was about 20#. Sometimes i could see the 225 gr 375 bullet punch the hole in the paper using a 8-32X50 Burris Black Diamond scope. With the rifle in a lighter stock, 15#, I do not see the impact. The rifle moves too much.

To see the impact you need low recoil, i.e. little movement of the rifle, and a good scope.
 
drover said:
IMO you hit the nail on the head, I could have written those very words myself since my experience mirrors yours.

I truly think that most folks believe that they are able to see more hits with the 204 because they have read, or heard it repeated, so many times that they expect to see their hits and as a consequence they do see more hits because they expect to. If they paid as much attention with the other small calibers they would see the same thing.

drover
Click to expand...

It's no illusion. When the rifle is heavy enough, the scope powerful enough and good quality, the forend is flat and the rifle doesn't cant and you have learned not to blink when the rifle fires you can and I do see the impact. Try the same thing with my friends
.243 ( standard factory Rem 700 BDL heavy barreled varminter ) and I can't see a thing.
Andy.
 
As another point of interest this past July I used a 17 AI Hornet Cooper shooting 25 gr bullets over H4198 powder @ 3,400 fps. No muzzle brake. Rifle was about 12#. Scope was a 1" 4-16 Pentex. Not a very good scope.

I could almost always see the P.D. blow apart on impact. This little rifle had almost no recoil and very little muzzle blast. More similar to a 22 Rim fire than a center fire.
 
Depending on the rifle weight and field of view of the scope you're using seeing impacts isn't a big problem until you get into rifles that have some recoil. I can see impacts with all my live varmint rifles from a CZ 527 in .222 Rem, up to a 6x47 (6mm/222 Mag) Improved. The scopes vary in power from 12X up to 20X. When shooting prairie dogs if you can't see the impacts it's hard to know if you've connected or not since they're frequently not visible after the shot whether they've been hit or not.

I can't see that the .204 would produce any less recoil than any .223 load, especially a live varmint load with 40 to 50/53 gr bullets.
 
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I remember

I remember about two years ago when I was rabbit shooting on a property about 6 hours drive from where I live. It's open very flat country with small rises in the round that make good vantage points to shoot prone from.

The 12x-42 NXS scope on the .25/06 was being used at a range between 300 and 400 yards. The heavy rifle over 14 pounds didn't recoil much and I could see when I connected there was this big red puff of smoke and the varmint was gone.
Andy.
 
I believe what they mean is that in comparison to the .22-250, you can see your shots. They say the same thing about the .223. Every Varmint cartridge gets compared to the .22-250 in some way. The .223 doesn't shoot as flat, and the .204 isn't as good in the wind, but there are rifles to be sold! ;)
 
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