Houston we may have a problem!!

JerrySharrett

JerrySharrett

Senile Member
Think about this; we sometimes soak, for hours, even days, with bore cleaners that contain high content of ammonia. Why? Supposedly to get the copper out. Do we even have copper in the barrels we shoot in competition? what is this ammonia doing to the metallic elements in the barrels alloy?

We may be greatly reducing barrel life with these long soaks of high ammonia content cleaners....in barrels that are not yet coppering.

I know one longtime and major benchrest gunsmith who believes we are shortening barrel life using high doses of ammonia when we don't yet have c coppering problem in a particular barrel.

At some cleaning tables I do see a lot of green on the used patches, but when I watch those shooters clean their barrels, their first soak is to dip their bronze brush in the solvent bottle then wet the barrel with it. Hello?? Just what is the metallurgical content of those brushes??? Possibly adding to this barrel life reducing exercise, they are wetting a hot barrel!
 
I always thought the rule of thumb was not to let ammonia based solvents sit for more than 10-15 minutes, then patch it out. The between relay time frame isn't too bad I think.

I have however used the Hoppes Benchrest solvent (dark brown label) for overnight soaks. It probably has ammonia in it, but it is thick and doesn't act against copper as quickly as others. Or, the Wipeout Foam is a real good overnighter.

I can't comment on whether it is harming the barrel or not.
 
Ammonia

I have been using Sweets 7.62 Solvent to quickly remove copper for a long time. The label on the bottle says it contains 5% ammonia(Don't know if that is excessive) and that it is harmless to steel. The label also instructs the user not to leave sweets in the barrel for periods longer than 15 minutes. I have unintentionally left sweets in a barrel for two days. A borescope examination revealed no damage to the bore. However, I might not have known what I was looking at.

If in fact, Ammonia causes damage to rifle bores,Solvent Manufacturers who use this chemical in their products are risking costly civil Lawsuits from consumers who can prove barrel bore damage.

For many years now,Iv'e heard talk of rifle bore etching caused by ammonia based bore solvents. If this is a fact,then why not show proof to the solvent manufacturers so they can address these issues.



Glenn
 
I've used Warthog 1134 for for years and no damage to barrels. I don't stroke back and forth like most, in and out and never pull back a brush back through either. No soaking, clean in a very short time with minim time a rod is in the barrel and no crown damage from pulling the brush back through……….. Jim O'Hara
 
A few years back I asked Arnold Jewell [of Jewell Trigger fame] about the use of Sweets 7.62, a heavy ammonia based product.

Somewhere during the discussion he mentioned that he had as an experiment [he always seems to be experimenting] sealed some 7.62 up in a small cut off section of a custom barrel. And then let it sit there for a year.

He said that when he opened it up, there had been no damage to the [custom] barrel. End of story. :)
 
Here is where having access to the old forum archives would be nice

If anyone here had the foresight to print off posts on this subject by some of the chemists/engineers/experimenters who used to frequent this forum ( Dave Dohrmann, Frank Murphy, Skip Otto, Dan H, et al) ..... Boyd??....... or if some of those still around (Borden, Walley, Lilja) would care to bring us up to date :)

This is from Borden Accuracy, currently on site http://bordenrifles.com/clean_edited_april2010.pdf

There was some spirited discussion in the deep past, even some cursory posts in the more recent history. I'm not exactly sure where this debate is today.


http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?57312-Ammonia-Based-Bore-Cleaners

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59293-I-know-I-m-not-supposed-to-let-ammonia-sit-in-a-barrel

Jerry makes some good points

al
 
I do not believe that the ammonia content of bore cleaning solvent tells the whole story. IMO what it is mixed with can have a significant effect.

Years back, I became distracted (had a brain fart) and left Sweets in a cromoly bore overnight, and pitted it. After that, I decided that I could get along very nicely without ever using it again, given that there were and are cleaners that do a good job on copper, and contain ammonia, that seem to have much less potential for that kind of screw up. I think that this is because Sweets does not (to my knowledge) contain any oil and some other ammonia based solvents do.

Years back, I seem to remember reading that although the use of very strong ammonia in an of itself did not damage bores, that as it sat in a bore, and the water that it was diluted with evaporated off, that the resultant concentration could harm steel. I think that that is what pitted my barrel.

Also, in years past, I remember shooters who would check their bores for copper using Sweets, after going through their normal cleaning routine, and that these were the fellows that seemed to be continually fighting copper fouling. Although I have no scientific proof, I came to the conclusion that the problem may have been that Sweets did not leave anything behind, as cleaners that had some petroleum content do, and it was that "drying" of the bore that may have been the issue. In the last couple of years I have had the use of a couple of very good hard plastic jags, and if I am not sure of the source of a little color on a patch, I do a test, with one of those. More than once, I came to the conclusion that a copper active solvent had colored patches because of its action on a brass jag.

Years back, when Merill Martin was writing for Precision Shooting, and Chuck Cornett was hosting his Prairie Dog Conferences, I suggested that he take a bore scope rigged to a video camera, with a monitor for viewing, to one of Chuck's events. Prior to that Merill had said that he could tell if a barrel had been maintained using ammonia based solvent, by looking at its interior with his scope. That is why I suggested that he take the rig to one of the conferences to do a demonstration. He did, and was able to show people what he had written about. I believe that at that time, Sweets was more commonly used for removing jacket fouling than it seems to be today.

On the point of leaving a piece of barrel in some solvent for and extended period, it seems to me that if it was done in a sealed container, and the sample immersed in the solvent, that the conditions of that test would not be the same as when cleaning a barrel, where evaporation, and reaction with oxygen can and do occur.
 
I periodically use a Sinclair chamber plug, set my rifle upright and fill the barrel with Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover which has no ammonia or harsh chemicals in it. I let the the barrel soak for 12 to 24 hours but have let it soak a couple of days. Prior to doing this for the first time I talked to a technician at Bore Tech and asked him about doing this extended soaking of the barrel. He said with their C4 Carbon Remover, Cu+2 Copper Remover or Eliminator you could soak for as long as you want. He said they have a test tank with barrels that have been soaking for a couple of years and they check the barrels routinely and have found no damage to the barrels. So far I have only done long soaking with their C4 Carbon Remover as copper build up and removal has never been a problem with my custom barrels.
 
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Bingo !

On the point of leaving a piece of barrel in some solvent for and extended period, it seems to me that if it was done in a sealed container, and the sample immersed in the solvent, that the conditions of that test would not be the same as when cleaning a barrel, where evaporation, and reaction with oxygen can and do occur.[/QUOTE]

Oxygen can do very bad things.

Dick
 
ConRich said:
On the point of leaving a piece of barrel in some solvent for and extended period, it seems to me that if it was done in a sealed container, and the sample immersed in the solvent, that the conditions of that test would not be the same as when cleaning a barrel, where evaporation, and reaction with oxygen can and do occur.
Click to expand...

Oxygen can do very bad things.

Dick

[/QUOTE]Like I said the Bore Tech technician said it was not a problem with their solvent and you would think he would know and if you are worried about it just put a plug in the top of the barrel or tape over the crown. One time I did have a piece of stainless steel sit in a small open container of C4 for a month and it never showed any abnormal signs.
 
If you have to soak a barrel over night, I would be looking for a better bore cleaner….. Rather than worry how it will harm barrel steel, get one that cleans it in about 15 minutes and be done with it……… jim
 
Ammonia based cleaners

A few isolated incidents of barrel pitting does not make the case against the use of Ammonia or other unidentified chemicals in bore cleaners. I have seen barrel pitting in bores that never saw a drop of ammonia based cleaners.

If the product manufacturers are not concerned enough to place clear warnings on solvent containers,there usually is a very good reason. They are the ones liable for damages caused from the use of their products.

I left Sweets in a stainless Rifle barrel for two days. There was no visible damage to my bore(Examination with bore scope). The Rifle was left sitting in a cleaning cradle,in the garage for two whole days. If this practice is considered part of a test protocol, to confirm that a chemical reaction does occur,it didn’t work in my experience.

I use sweets in my hunting rifle barrels(stainless) after every range session. It gets the copper out quickly. Sometimes I forget and let it sit all night long. So far,I have seen no bore damage.

I am not endorsing the use of sweets or any barrel cleaning product to anyone.

I do recommend that the choice is yours. Use what works for you.


Glenn
 
Texas Plinker said:
Oxygen can do very bad things.

Dick
Click to expand...

Consider this too, there are several ammonia containing compounds, all having different properties. Ammonia by itself, as we call it, is a gas, NH3, and is very corrosive to many materials including the 300 series Stainless Steels. I know that for fact having worked in a large chemical plant for 40 years. We had to use many corrosion resistant stainless steels including the ELC (extra low carbon) grades.

If the bore solvent cleaner producers told on the container what the compound was we could better judge long term effects. One of the best bore cleaners ever made was the original Hoppes #9 formula but it contained an ammonia compound called ammonium oleate and our protector, the EPA made them take that off the market.

A few years ag I posted on this forum a test sample of 416 barrel steel that I had kept at an elevated temperature for a few hours and was subjected to several "gunbarrel" cleaners from CR10 to RB17 and I found no ill effects there either. The search feature for this forum is apparently not currently working or I would link this post to it.
 
JerrySharrett;736646 At some cleaning tables I do see a lot of green on the used patches said:
i wonder if we got away from using bronze brushes and just start using nylon brushes would that be better? dont know if that was the right word "better" but.........
Click to expand...
 
jim1K said:
If you have to soak a barrel over night, I would be looking for a better bore cleaner….. Rather than worry how it will harm barrel steel, get one that cleans it in about 15 minutes and be done with it……… jim
Click to expand...

I think the Bore Tech Carbon Cleaner is a good cleaner. I do not soak the barrel overnight every time I clean the barrel but as I said I just periodically use a chamber plug and soak the barrel with the Bore Tech. The main reason I do that is to let it work on the throat area and the first part of the bore and try to make it easy to avoid a carbon ring. Putting the Bore Tech in the barrel to soak and cleaning it the next day does not take more than as you say "15 minutes" and the borescope says the procedure works.
 
I patch (short stroking) for several patches, using a .22 jag for 6mm barrels, then I brush, then I put a couple of wet patches through before letting things soak for a bit, perhaps 15 minutes. The reason that I started patching first was that I want to remove as much of the abrasive combustion products as I can before brushing. so that there is not a slurry that includes glass primer residue in the bore as it is brushed. I short stroke several patches until they look pretty clean, Then I wet my brush, and use it, wiping it and the rod dry when I am finished, by pulling them through a wadded up paper towel. The reason for the next two wet patches is to remove the "brush dust" so that I don't get a false reading. I do not short stroke these, so that the brass jag is not in the bore very long. Then I let things sit a bit. I had to laugh to myself a bit the other day, when a friend told me that he had finally figured out that the color that he had been worrying about on his patches had been brush residue. It must have been twenty years ago that I figured that one out, after looking at how even and flat the ends of the bristles were on a used bronze brush, compared to a new one, and comparing their diameters. I wonder how many are still fooled by the color on their patches from this "brush dust" that is ground off of the end of the bristles as they are stroked up and down the bore.
 
some even go as far as using those new "proof rods and jags" so theyre not fooled at all. I just know its gonna do it, I know I dont concern myself with getting all the copper out, and I know I gotta replace my brushes often. But- I replace my barrels probably more often than most and get the carbon out between aggs. Carry on gents.
 
I have shot highpower, longrange, smallbore, and now benchrest and not one of the barrels that I have used have ever seen a brush. I shot moly (and still do for centerfire of course) and use a total of 10 patches to clean my barrel. The last patch comes out whistle clean. Very easy. Not one of our smallbore rifles have ever seen a brush either - always used patches. The last smallbore barrel that my daughter shot was a 2 groove Benchmark barrel installed by the late Bill Myers. He reiterated that under no circumstances will a brush ever be run through his barrel. He made a rod guide and a cleaning rod just for that action. This is just what I do.

Matt
 
I found the old thread where there was a long discussion on barrel damage caused by ammonia products.

It is a longer read, if you care to, but I still feel that certain ammonia compounds and mixes of certain ammonia compounds can cause barrel damage. We just haven't gone into this enough.

One of the participants of the older thread is a much respected and long time gunsmith and engineer who has had experience with ammonia compounds and stainless steels as have I.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...supposed-to-let-ammonia-sit-in-a-barrel/page2
 
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