Headspace Qquestion

[hoagiejoe]

I have a somewhat rookie question:

I am building a 6BR Norma with a Criterion Rem/Age barrel. I can turn the barrel in the action to the point I can barely close the bolt and it will still close with the no go. I measured the gauge and it is longer than the go gauge. I monkeyed around with this for a while with pretty much the same results.

My previous experience with this style barrel (on a 308) and go/no go gauges everything worked as expected.

Next I set it up so that the bolt closed tightly on unfired brass, with a primer installed. When I pull the trigger, it marks the primer but it does not appear deep enough and it does not "fire" the primer. My question is should I expect it to? I've never tried to fire just a primer in an unloaded case. If it should be firing the primer, I can't get the headspace tight enough and have some other issue.

Thanks!

 

[hoagiejoe]

just answered my own question

primed 308 brass for a different gun and it fired. Now to figure out the issue....

 

[mwezell]

primed 308 brass for a different gun and it fired. Now to figure out the issue....

Figure out how much excess headspace you have. I think it would be wise to do this before firing live ammo in it. It sounds like something is amiss, here. Hopefully not, but way, way better safe, than sorry, with 60,000psi just inches from your face.

My first thought is that it may be 30-06 or something. Just verify everything before firing and you'll be good. Hopefully the issue is much less severe than this.

 

[hoagiejoe]

Figure out how much excess headspace you have. I think it would be wise to do this before firing live ammo in it. It sounds like something is amiss, here. Hopefully not, but way, way better safe, than sorry, with 60,000psi just inches from your face.

My first thought is that it may be 30-06 or something. Just verify everything before firing and you'll be good. Hopefully the issue is much less severe than this.

Thank you. After spending more time with it I removed the barrel and realized the bolt is up against the barrel and still won't fire. When chambered, the brass is slightly recessed compared with the edge of the barrel. I'm not sure where it should be but since the bolt head tapers and fits into the barrel, I suspect the barrel needs to be taken down a bit. The irony is I bought this style barrel because I don't have a local gunsmith I trust

If I am correct about the issue, I hope Criterion will machine it and in a timely manner - I've been trying to get this built for a couple of months now. I bought the barrel from Northland Shooters Supply. I don't think they do any machining but are pretty awesome so maybe they can help, other than tell me to go to my local gunsmith !

 

[hoagiejoe]

How did you measure the headspace gauges ?

Hi, I measure just the rim, from the base to the edge below the ogive and total length. I thought there may be something wrong with it, so I was trying to be thorough, though now I think I found the culprit. Thanks!

 

[JerrySharrett]

I have a somewhat rookie question:

I am building a 6BR Norma with a Criterion Rem/Age barrel. I can turn the barrel in the action to the point I can barely close the bolt and it will still close with the no go. I measured the gauge and it is longer than the go gauge. I monkeyed around with this for a while with pretty much the same results.

My previous experience with this style barrel (on a 308) and go/no go gauges everything worked as expected.

Next I set it up so that the bolt closed tightly on unfired brass, with a primer installed. When I pull the trigger, it marks the primer but it does not appear deep enough and it does not "fire" the primer. My question is should I expect it to? I've never tried to fire just a primer in an unloaded case. If it should be firing the primer, I can't get the headspace tight enough and have some other issue.

Thanks!

Am I understanding your bolt face is hitting the barrel? A bolt face should be about 0.010" clearance between it and the barrel, or greater.

On your unfired primer, the FIRED firing pin should extent about 0.050" out from the bolt face.

Measuring headspace gages from their base to the body/shoulder is not the best nespecially if the two gages may not be the same diameter at the body/shoulder intersection.

Who chambered this barrel?

.

 

[hoagiejoe]

Am I understanding your bolt face is hitting the barrel? A bolt face should be about 0.010" clearance between it and the barrel, or greater.

On your unfired primer, the FIRED firing pin should extent about 0.050" out from the bolt face.

Measuring headspace gages from their base to the body/shoulder is not the best nespecially if the two gages may not be the same diameter at the body/shoulder intersection.

Who chambered this barrel?

.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Yes the bolt hits the barrel before the bullet/gauge is seated enough into the bolt. I took some measurements based on a PM I received. It appears there is a gap of about .050 between the bolt face and the no go gauge when the bolt is up against the barrel.

I took a look and the firing pin appears to protrude at least .050 from the bolt face.

This is an off the shelf barrel made my Criterion. It is designed to fit a Remington 700 or clone. It has a Savage style nut (with Remington threads) and the head spacing is up to the buyer. The action is a Stiller Predator V.

Seems there is some machining to be done!

Edit: This is from the barrel description: "...which is a hand lapped match grade Criterion barrel that is completely finished and fully chambered."

Joe

 

[NickB1075]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Yes the bolt hits the barrel before the bullet/gauge is seated enough into the bolt. I took some measurements based on a PM I received. It appears there is a gap of about .050 between the bolt face and the no go gauge when the bolt is up against the barrel.

I took a look and the firing pin appears to protrude at least .050 from the bolt face.

This is an off the shelf barrel made my Criterion. It is designed to fit a Remington 700 or clone. It has a Savage style nut (with Remington threads) and the head spacing is up to the buyer. The action is a Stiller Predator V.

Seems there is some machining to be done!

Edit: This is from the barrel description: "...which is a hand lapped match grade Criterion barrel that is completely finished and fully chambered."

Joe

Just an idea I have never delt with a stiller action. But maybe the tenon recoil lug combination is not compatible with a Remington 700?
Just because it is a 700 clone doesn't mean that it is exactly the same.

Nick

 

[MilGunsmith]

Try the bolt and headspace gage with barrel out of the reciever. With the go gage there should be .010"-.015" between the front of the lugs and the barrel. If there isnt, the chamber may be too deep. If the space is correct, then the tenon may e long.

 

[hoagiejoe]

Try the bolt and headspace gage with barrel out of the reciever. With the go gage there should be .010"-.015" between the front of the lugs and the barrel. If there isnt, the chamber may be too deep. If the space is correct, then the tenon may e long.

Just an idea I have never dealt with a stiller action. But maybe the tenon recoil lug combination is not compatible with a Remington 700?
Just because it is a 700 clone doesn't mean that it is exactly the same.

Nick

I think you may have nailed it Nick about compatibility. More rookie stuff on my part but it appears the bolt head is oversized. I took the bolt out of another action and all seems well. This bolt tapers from the front of the lug down to the front end and doesn't seem to fit far enough into the opening. So, I will call Stiller and ask if there are other bolt options so I can use off-the shelf barrels like this Criterion Rem/Age. If not, I will have to get custom work done when I rebarrel, which was what I was trying to avoid going this route. I spoke with Northland and they were very helpful as always. They said if it is an oversize bolt face they will help facilitate having Criterion open up the barrel to accommodate it.

 

[NickB1075]

I would personally sell that prefit as is unused. I am sure you would get you money back. Then put the money toward a custom barrel and get it fit properly. In the long run you will have a better product.

You have a top notch action why mess with something like a prefit. I know they have a good track record and I have seen them shoot well. If you are looking for a switch barrel set up I change my barrels faster and with less headache then doing the whole Savage remage prefit thing.

Is this a single shot action? Sounds like you might have a comedy bolt.

Nick

 

[Dick Grosbier]

I would personally sell that prefit as is unused. I am sure you would get you money back. Then put the money toward a custom barrel and get it fit properly. In the long run you will have a better product.

You have a top notch action why mess with something like a prefit. I know they have a good track record and I have seen them shoot well. If you are looking for a switch barrel set up I change my barrels faster and with less headache then doing the whole Savage remage prefit thing.

Is this a single shot action? Sounds like you might have a comedy bolt.

Nick

Good advice IMO

 

[SGS]

I just looked at Stiller's website and it shows that the Predator V does indeed have a coned bolt nose. Your barrel is not compatible.

 

[mwezell]

I just looked at Stiller's website and it shows that the Predator V does indeed have a coned bolt nose. Your barrel is not compatible.

Ahhh..good catch. Only the single shot Predators use that bolt unless ordered that way, though. But still sounds like you may have nailed his issue. Jerry or the new owners might swap bolts with him...or, just sell that action and buy the correct one, would be a couple of options. Another would be to have the barrel fit to that action and bolt.

 

[cbibarrels]

I just looked at Stiller's website and it shows that the Predator V does indeed have a coned bolt nose. Your barrel is not compatible.

It looks like you hit the nail on the head with that one. Most action manufacturers will offer recessed (Remington 700 pattern) bolt heads or actions with Remington 700 thread patterns and a flat bolt face (Like a Big Horn action). We can design the pre-fit barrels to accommodate either of those patterns, but we would need a print of the bolt head and shank design from the action manufacturer to accommodate different (tapered) bolt lug designs. If Stiller is unable to accommodate your request for a different bolt configuration, and are unwilling to supply the prints for the tapered bolt head, breech face, and tenon specifications, we could always accommodate a request for a contoured blank (although as you had mentioned you would prefer to avoid the added time and expense of sending the barrel out to a gunsmith for threading, crowning, and chambering).

Feel free to shoot us an email at contact@criterionbarrels.com or give us a call at (262) 628-8749. We're always more than happy to help out!

 

[Mike Bryant]

If I had a single shot action with a coned bolt, changing the bolt out for a Remington style bolt wouldn't be an option that I'd consider just so a pre threaded and chambered barrel for a Remington could be installed on it. There's no reason to have a Remington bolt nose in a single shot action. The coned bolt is the way to go in a single shot action.

 

[hoagiejoe]

Gentlemen,

Looks like you were a step ahead of me. I didn't receive any emails that there were new responses and missed the last few posts (including the one from CBI-- Thank you!)- I just happened to log in today to post an update.

Indeed, this action is a single shot, has a coned bolt and Stiller said they do not have another bolt that will work with it. When I bought it I missed that it has the coned bolt head. Good detective work and great advice!

I have already received the blueprint for the proper chambering from Stiller (the PredatorV print is not on their site, only the Predator), sent on to Northland, who sent to Criterion, who agreed to do the machining to make it work (note to CBI: I also put a copy in the box). I already sent off the barrel yesterday. I'm sure it will turn out great. When I'm ready for another barrel, I'm hoping I can just order it through Northland with this chamber.

I plan to purchase one of these Criterion barrels soon for my Remington 700 in 308. This one I'm sure will fit, ha ha!

As far as wanting this style barrel over buying an unchambered and sending it off: The only barrels I own that were chambered by a gunsmith are one that came on a build from Killough and another on a used gun that was already done. Other barrels I have swapped are on my rimfires - CZ455 and 10/22. I also bought an Anschutz 2013 over the 1913 so it would be easier to swap should the barrel not be up to snuff (though that one is very accurate). I was looking into buying an unchambered barrel once but the gunsmith I contacted wasn't taking on any more work at that time.

I've been shooting and swapping components on guns and rifles for years but am new to getting custom machining done. Even the simple stuff I have had done, like having a couple of barrels threaded, I sent across the country because I don't have a local smith I would use.

Anyway, looks like I'm on my way to getting this project done! Since I only shoot from a bench, I bought a fiberglass benchrest stock that I had bedded (I've bedded a handful myself but for the price of inletting and bedding, it wasn't worth the stress do it myself) , I borrowed a rifle basix trigger off another gun and just have to decide which other rifle is going to go scopeless. I already bought some factory ammo so I have a benchmark for my reloads, as well as brass. I even already have the dies, a few different bullets and primers.

Thanks again for everyone's guidance, I appreciate it.

 

[hoagiejoe]

update

I know you all have been waiting at the edge our your seat for an update! Criterion made me a new barrel to the PredatorV specs, completed it in the time frame they projected and were super awesome and helpful the couple of times I called. Seems like a terrific company culture.

During transit, I called UPS to hold the barrel at the hub for pickup and it was recorded online for me to see. The barrel arrived a UPS today at about 1am and about 5:30 am it was processed for me to pick up. I arrived at noon and by then it had vanished. I worked with the guy who handled the processing. I left empty handed and he called me later to verify it is gone. He did a bunch of research to cover various potential scenarios and said he doubts it ended up on a truck but would do more research in the morning. He then went on to say he would help me process the claim - he sounds confident it is gone. Maybe they have a theft problem there? I plan to push the issues hard. I'm sure they can figure out what happened through surveillance, though I doubt it will help me at all (I don't think they will admit anything me).

Anyway, my fingers are crossed but I suspect I'll be ordering another barrel.

 

[Wilbur]

Really sorry that happened. Sounds like you are "snake bit" on this particular venture.

 

[hoagiejoe]

Jury is still out but shows promise

Thank You Wilbur

Fortunately, UPS was able to track it down by the following afternoon.

I assembled the barrel to the action and all went very smoothly, then finished up the rifle with a standard benchrest setup:

PredatorV Action and supplied rail, Right Bolt/Left Port, no eject
The 1:8 twist Criterion barrel we’ve been discussing
McMillan Flatline stock
Rifle Basix trigger
Warne rings
Golden Eagle fine crosshair scope
For head spacing, I ended up with a slightly firm close on the Go Gauge

Loading factory Lapua rounds, some felt similar to closing the bolt on the Go Gauge, but with others, closing the bolt was easier. I can’t imagine rim thickness varies much with the Lapua brass and I would hope overall length is close. Anyway, I have not checked the brass yet and have some more factory ammo I will check for OAL. After shooting, the GO Guage feels exactly as it did before shooting.

I was shooting 90 and 105gr in the 1:8. I started out at 100 yards to get sighted in and planned to move out the the max at the range of 200 soon after, but never made it out to 200.

I cleaned the barrel with J-B bore compound the night before until clean, then some Hoppes No.9, then some dry patches. Break-in at the range took some time. I realized I only brought the Hoppes but felt like I was getting the barrel clean. I probably shot more between cleanings than I should have because when shots looked promising, I’d go up to 3 but by the time I got to 3 they weren’t too good, from about .25 to about .6”. Eventually I shot a half inch 5 shot group, then 1 - 5 shot group about .2” (and another where the first shot was low left and the next 4 were ¼ or less) but I felt like I should be shooting 1 small hole at 100 yards.

After my last shot I cleaned the barrel until the patches were clean, while the barrel was hot. Later at home I began cleaning with the J-B again and could not believe how dirty it was. I must have run 10 patches up, down, back and forth and could not get it clean. I did a little cleaning with a nylon 22 cal brush as well (and have the correct size on the way from Bruno with some 107 and 115 grain bullets.) Eventually I had to stop because I had to run an errand.

In fact, it is still dirty - I never got back to cleaning it. I’m shooting a rimfire match tomorrow and possibly Sunday and needed to prep the gun for that/those and do some other things.

Soooo: the benches where I shot are pretty good but not cement and there is some movement. Also, I haven’t shot a center fire rifle in a few months and on top of that am unsure of best way to shoot this thing. I have a lot to work on to determine just how small I can get the groups with this barrel.

Anyway, it may be a week or two before I get out again and provide an update. I’ll be shooting my own loads next time out. There is so much info and varied success at different seating depths, who knows where things will end up!

Soon I also want to get a slower twist barrel for it and use some lighter bullets to see how that goes since I'll be shooting 300 yards max for now.

Joe