Hang-Fires

[Tod Soeby]

Well. it's that time of year again......you guys all see it. When everyone in the country brings you thier 5 3/4 pound 300 wbys and 30-378's to "get em to shoot like yours" for deer season. I, personaly, am getting to dislike this season more and more. It's just frustrating when no mater what you do.....SOME OF THE DAMN THINGS JUST WON'T SHOOT. I just havent learned when to say " WHEN" yet!!! Not to mention the beating I get.

Anyway...the 30-378. The guy insists on using 200 Sierra HPBT's becuse they work in his brothers gun. I decided to try some RL 25 with the 200's , since I have a pile of it. The loading data out there is all over the place on where to start. I loaded 5 with 92 gr, and 3 each with 94, 96, 98, 100, 102, & 104.

The first 5 five at 92 gr. were all hang-fires. It took me a min. to figure it out since I had never had a hang-fire before. I thought there was something wrong with the trigger!!!! I have herd of em, but never had one. The rest of the the groups went along with out a hitch, and I started to se a bit of PSI at 102 and 104. I just figured that the 92 grain loads were to light of loads. Now I am not so sure. Would a to light of a load even cause a hang-fire?

Anyway....It shot good at 98 and I had a called flyer at 100, so I loaded up 8 more at 97, 6 each at 98, 99, and 100 ( two 3 shot groups). The first thing I noticed was that EVERY group was 2 and 1 groups except the 100 gr groups, they were both just bad. But worse....I had another 5 hang-fires!!!! All five of the hang-fires were the one out of the group as best as I could tell. I did some dry firing with the gun, and when the hammer falls, the cross hairs are all over the place. I do take my time between shots/groups so as to not get things to warm. I also cleaned half way through ....I shot one group of each load and cleaned and shot them in reverse order after I cleaned, so it isn't a fowling issue.


Could I have a bad batch of primers? They are fresh (new blue box) Fed 215's. I do know that the factory WBY rifles come with a 1-12 twist....that might explain the flyers.....just not enough twist to fully stabilize the 200's.

I am kind of stumped. I am going to try some 180 grain bullets. That might get rid of the flyers. I do know that my powder is good.....I have a bunch of the same lot # that I use in my comp gun. This was over two days, but the weather was identical....40 degrees, cloudy and calm......PERFECT. I am always carfull that there is no tumbling media blocking the flash holes....I check them when they come out of the drum, and again when I clean the primer pockets.


Any Ideas????

Thanks.
Tod

 

[alinwa]

One word of advice....... CHANGE PRIMERS and start over......... your primers are incompatible with your powder.

In My Opinion.

Now, if this is the exact same powder and primer as works in your comp gun??? Then I'm stumped.

al

 

[Tod Soeby]

One word of advice....... CHANGE PRIMERS and start over......... your primers are incompatible with your powder.

In My Opinion.

Now, if this is the exact same powder and primer as works in your comp gun??? Then I'm stumped.

al

The powder is for sure the same. I used the last of my two year supply of reg 215's as sighters at The IBS nat's, and I had a scored few "new box" 215match primers that I used as my actual record rounds. I have a since collected a few more hundred of the match primers out of that store's supply. He only had 1000 of the 215 M primers, and I now am the proud owner of 400 of them. PURE FRIGGEN GOLD!!! I guess I could try a few of those, but, if it comes down to a guys hunting gun and me not having any primers for next years matches....well, I am sure you can guess who is going to win THAT battle!!!!!! I will give him the gun and he can spend a hundred bucks a box for factoy shells.

Now, I have loaded for a few 30-378's , 338-378's and 338L's. I have never had a problem with 215's and big cases with large doses of slow powder. If it is the primers, then I believe it is because of a bad batch, not because of a compatabillity issue. That is my uneducated guess, of course.

Anyone have any word on the primer "CRISIS" that we are in? I am getting a little more pissed off every day!!!

 

[Chisolm]

Tod,
Are you sure that it's a 12 twist, current production is 1 in 10, I am sure mine is a 10 also. If you try 180s I have had good luck with 111gr Retumbo and 215s Honady IB or Barnes TSX bullets, I know others that use this load too.
Not sure on the hangfires, contrary to Al's suggestion I would never consider anything but 215 (215m) in the 378 case, it and the 338 Lapua are the only reason I have them on hand. If you have problems with hangfires a cooler primer ain't going to help.
I never have been able to get Alliant powders to shoot in anything myself, although it seems you have.

I am sure I don't have the same lot but out of curiosity what lot of 215s do you have?

James

 

[Dave Holland]

????hang fire --or miss fire ???

Tod ???Hang fire in that it you pulled the trigger and it was a short while and it did fire latter than normal ---
Or miss fire in that it never did go off ?? If it was a miss fire i would pull the round apart and slowley push out the primer and now the fun part using the proper safety glasses and clothing try hitting the primer with a hammer on a hard area and see if it does go off --if it goes off you have a firing pin issue-if it does not go BANG you have a primer issue

 

[Tod Soeby]

Tod ???Hang fire in that it you pulled the trigger and it was a short while and it did fire latter than normal ---
Or miss fire in that it never did go off ?? If it was a miss fire i would pull the round apart and slowley push out the primer and now the fun part using the proper safety glasses and clothing try hitting the primer with a hammer on a hard area and see if it does go off --if it goes off you have a firing pin issue-if it does not go BANG you have a primer issue

It was a very quick clickbang. The gun went off, and a lesser man wouldn't have even noticed anything wrong.... Just kidding. it was very quick...at least to me. But, then again, I have never had one before.....I always think of them as being a second or two between the click and the bang....

Also....James....you are correct....I just checked on the factory specs.....1-10 twist. I don't know where I got the 1-12 twist idea from. I had the same thing happen a few years ago with an AR-30 338 L....i baught 250 SMK insted of the 300 SMK.. It shot them well, though, so nothing hurt......

Maybe I will try some 210 bergers.....and s#itty primers...yah...that otta work

 

[alinwa]

The compatibility thing ain't about "heat"...... some primer/powder combos just don't work without clickbangs....

'm just sayin'......

al

 

[Tod Soeby]

The compatibility thing ain't about "heat"...... some primer/powder combos just don't work without clickbangs....

'm just sayin'......

al

The heat thing was not me. I figured bad lot of primers. But are you saying that it could be the RL 25/ 215 combo in THE 30-378....or maybe just THIS 30-378? That maybe Retumbo/H5010/BMG/AA8700/H870/RL22/ ect... might work perfectly fine with the 215's in the/this 30-378? I have used RL 25/ 215's in a Lapua....worked great. Never tried it in the 338-378 or any of the other 30-378's I have worked with. It just seemed like a good idea at the time.

I just REALY don't like the "clickbangs"!!!!

I have another lot # of primers to try. I also have a little of the afore mentioned powders to try. Should keep me buisy for a while!!!

Thanks...your imput is greatly apreciated!!!!

Tod

 

[Asa Yam]

Might be primers. Or it might be a weak mainspring. Or, the innards of the bolt may have too much grease inside. The last one is easy to check - just disassemble the bolt.

 

[Tod Soeby]

Might be primers. Or it might be a weak mainspring. Or, the innards of the bolt may have too much grease inside. The last one is easy to check - just disassemble the bolt.

WBY MK V...do I need special tools for that???? Sorry for the dumb question...just not that familiar wuth the WBY action.

 

[matts52]

215's and RL25

Tod , I use 215s and Rl 25 in my 338-300 ultra and have no problems, I also use it in the 300RUM and it works great also, in fact that is my first go to load when I get "hey ,you think you can work a load up for me?"
I charge them by the amount of beating I take,the more boom,the $$$$.LOL

 

[oneflyer]

Primer and powder combos

I watch these forums to learn. I watch particular posters because they have interesting posts and solutions are enlightening. One of the posts above is of particular interest to me because I have never seen such a statement before and defies logic to me.
Primers, when struck, ignite and subsequently ignite the gunpowder loaded in the round. My question is this. How can a primer/gunpowder combination inhibit the ignition of the primer resulting in a hangfire?

 

[Roger T]

Primer pockets

Might have a depth issue with some. Wouldn't hurt to check their depth, then check seated primers depth. I have used 5010,870,RL 25 and VV 170 with 215gmms in a 30-416imp in sub zero temps and not had isssues. FWIW. Also when you get the bolt apart check for slivers of brass possibly interfering with the fireing pin fall.

 

[trouble]

I had a couple of hang fires at my last 600 yd match and would like to know myself if there are powder , primer combos that don't work. This was with RL17 and Wolf srms in a modified 6br and have not had any problems in that rifle using other powders with the wolf primers. And yes, I double seat the wolf primers to make sure they are seated all the way in. They were cases that had been fired several times also.

 

[Tod Soeby]

Might have a depth issue with some. Wouldn't hurt to check their depth, then check seated primers depth. I have used 5010,870,RL 25 and VV 170 with 215gmms in a 30-416imp in sub zero temps and not had isssues. FWIW. Also when you get the bolt apart check for slivers of brass possibly interfering with the fireing pin fall.

I ran my sinclair uniforming tool in these when I first got the brass. Beond that, if there is a way to check the seating depth I don't know how to do it. If the pockets are tight and the brass has all been fired the same amount of times, I seat the first primer as far as I can to see where the "end" is, and the rest by feel. If the pockets are loose, I seat them as far as I can. Not sure if this practice is right or wrong, it's how I have been doing it for ever. Also, are you saying I should actualy measure the depth of the primer itself? What should they be? Do I just compare a bunch of them and see?

I am going to figure out how to get the bolt apart today.....I hope!!

Thanks, for all of the input...all are giving me something to look at!

 

[Steve Shelp]

Tod,
You have been given good advise already. Check the firing pin spring, primer pocket depth, take bolt apart to make sure its not gummed up.

But to me there are two things that really stand out to me:

#1 - your original statement said, "all 92gr loads were hang-fires and as your load went up in grains the hang-fires diminished or stopped all together." That tells me you are probably dealing with too light of a load to begin with.

IF this is the case YOU NEED TO TREAD LIGHTLY!!! You are dealing with a very dangerous issue in putting light loads and slow buring powders in big cases. This is a documented problem and anyone at the 1995 IBS 1000yd Natls saw the end result. It can and does happen. This shooter was using really light loads of H4831 in a big 30 magnum case and was causing hang-fires that sat for a couple of seconds before firing. He was opening the bolt when the load ignited. He was flown out on a helicopter.
So please don't overlook the evidence that you have that indicate this was too light of a load because the 92gr loads ALL were hang-fires.

#2 - 215s with R25 incompatilbilty. alinwa, you normally have good data to keep people honest on this board but I do not agree with this at all. What is your reason for saying this? I have fired 1000s of rounds in large cases with this very combo in hot to cold temps and never had an issue. This is competitive shooting and hunting.

The only time I've ever seen a primer/powder combo that didn't work is CCI BR-2 with R25 in 300 Ackley type cases. When the temp goes down you will eventually end up with hang-fires/miss-fires in a number of different rifles from what I have witnessed at matches. One very prominent IBS 1000yd shooter has repeated this and will not use CCI primers under a certain temperature during spring and fall matches.

This particular CCI "problem" isn't a pressure issue but one to where the shooter needs to be patient and not open the bolt to soon after the miss-fire/hang-fire. But the issue of really light loads of slow buring powder in large case is/can be a pressure issue also AND do not open the bolt to soon after the problem. Another good thing to do beside simply waiting X amount of time is to shake the rifle trying to make it go off if it is sitting there simmering before fully ingniting. Obviously keep the rifle pointed down range at all times.

Tod, you doing the right thing to ask about this issue.


Steve

 

[Larry Willis]

I've seen this before .....

I had a friend that stored all of his reloading components in the garage. This guy had misfires and hangfires that occurred regularly ..... almost like it was supposed to happen!

One day he finally decided to take my advice. He bought some new primers and started storing them inside (with air conditioning and far less moisture). His misfires and handfires ended. I often wondered what he ever did with all those known bad primers .....

- Innovative

 

[alinwa]

Steve, thanks for your input. (Larry, listen to this guy )


Primer/powder compatibility:

My first experience with this was shotgunning, trap shooting. Different I know, but not so much.

I had a load which worked well. I had about a bucket and a half loaded up using 700X (or 800X, disremember) and Win primers when I ran out out of primers. I switched to Fed 209's and loaded another 600-800rds. I ended up with hangfires below 50degrees using the Fed.

Hangfire---pumpgun---BAD.......

So I called Federal.

The tech I ended up talking with informed me that this combination was on their "list" as incompatible, prone to hang or miss in cool temps. They were very nice about it and even sent me free primers over the deal but he read my combo off and told me flat out that I'd never find this combination in a manual. He explained that in testing reloads for data manuals this is something that they're well aware of and it's one of the reasons that reloading manuals state that no component can be changed in certain loading data.

I don't know if this is relevant but it is where I was coming from. I've cured hangfire problems several times by changing primers.




As per the lighter loads hangfiring....... This is interesting.

What would be the reason? Too much air in the case maybe?

I've never played with hangfiring loads because they scare me. In fact I've learned to distrust slow powder/big cases to such an extent that this is specifically why my large tenon BAT is chambered in 300WSM. I've always changed components to make it go away because I DO remember the story of the bolt lodged in the shoulder, I use it 3-4 times a year in my Hunter Ed class.

I've never had hangfires which can be related to equipment. MISfires yes, but not hang's.

al

 

[Keith Skjerdal]

In cold weather, if you jump the bullets (i.e., you are not into the lands), once you ignite the primer, the bullet moves forward to the lands and stops again, until the pressure is high enough again to push the bullet down the barrel. This push to the lands increases the internal useable volume of the case and this increase in volume actually cools the gases!

For giggles, try the bullet into the lands with the same load. Bet she lights up just fine. By setting the bullet into the lands, the internal volume does not increase (since there is no stop and go before getting into the grooves) and the gases do not cool off. You may want to lower your charge if you are dancing with pressure already.

 

[alinwa]

In cold weather, if you jump the bullets (i.e., you are not into the lands), once you ignite the primer, the bullet moves forward to the lands and stops again, until the pressure is high enough again to push the bullet down the barrel. This push to the lands increases the internal useable volume of the case and this increase in volume actually cools the gases!

For giggles, try the bullet into the lands with the same load. Bet she lights up just fine. By setting the bullet into the lands, the internal volume does not increase (since there is no stop and go before getting into the grooves) and the gases do not cool off. You may want to lower your charge if you are dancing with pressure already.

This makes good sense and agrees with Steve...... I'm convinced that you and Steve are right about this.

But your term "if you are dancing with pressure already." pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

I hate hangfires.

al