gusty, switchy conditions...advice needed

S

savet06

Mike Suhie
I know that there may not be a single best answer to this type of question, but I have been presented with this situation at our range several times now and i just have a hell of time making heads or tails of it.
Barring the loose main post screw that cost me an 8 in the last match I felt very lucky to be able to have gotten away with the score I achieved in the last match I shot.
The winds were highly variable between 8-10mph with gusts to 15mph and the mirage was light to moderate at times (able to make out the rings to having them blurred completely...I was able to wait out the blurred lines so that wasn't as big an issue) the velocity of the wind wasn't the issue as much as the vector...multiple time the flag tails were pointing straight up and th flags were spinning in circles. FUN!

When faced with this type of day do you try to pick out some semblance of a "condition" and try to shoot in that or try to focus on a few flags that tend to be more of an influence than others? Understanding that the "condition" will literally only last long enough to get one shot off before the vector changes completely. In other words do you shoot in that "snap shot" moment and wait for it to return?

Several times I literally had to put a shot down range and just hope it went where it was supposed to go because no two flags agreed and the mirage was putting shots high at times and then right where I aimed at others. sighters did not help that day.

I need to simplify my thought process and start at a solid point which will guide my focus during the match.

Thanks for your help.
Mike
 
This is what I think the real answer is. When you're shooting (successfully), you are not thinking. Instinct, or experience is what lets you hold off with some confidence. So the question becomes, "what gives you experience?" And the old, old answer is, practice, practice, practice.
 
What shooting style do you use? Do you hold the rifle? The reason that I ask is that I try to have a bag setup, and rifle balance such that, if I want to, I can shoot free, heads up. When the mirage is moderately heavy, I shoot at the mothball's lowest position, and find this easiest to check with a 6 o'clock hold, where the top of the horizontal cross hair touches the bottom of the mothball, and the vertical splits it. By carefully establishing my point of aim, and then raising my head and studying the entire field of flags, I feel like I can make better decisions as to when to shoot. One thing that I have become aware of is that when using this style, one can fall into pulling the trigger with more force than is good for one's groups size. Also, if a condition will hold, all of this no-touchy heads up stuff goes out the window. I hold the rifle, and shoot as fast as I can. Of course the pitfall that one can fall into with this approach is trying to wish one in, instead or admitting that the condition is gone, and either waiting for it to return, or going to the sighter if time is short. For me, controlling emotions can be as important as controlling my rifle. I should say at the end, that I have never shot score, only group, so some or all of this may not apply, and if you would tell me which parts do and don't, I might learn something.
 
Charles E said:
This is what I think the real answer is. When you're shooting (successfully), you are not thinking. Instinct, or experience is what lets you hold off with some confidence. So the question becomes, "what gives you experience?" And the old, old answer is, practice, practice, practice.
Click to expand...


Practice... Yes, but in a constructive way.... The way a match is held.... In the middle of the day when conditions are typically nasty..... 7min "matches".
To have a successful Practice, one MUST have a known working rifle / rest, bags, "loads", shooting technique.... One MUST have confidence that the GUN has a known tune window for the days conditions and that you can SEE and read your flags well.

Use the GOOD day/mornings to find, not "a tune" but to find out if the equipment is WORKING... Shooting with a buddy and his equipment can help you diagnose issues pretty fast... Of course unless both have equipment issues....

Boyds last points:
"For me, controlling emotions can be as important as controlling my rifle. I should say at the end, that I have never shot score, only group, so some or all of this may not apply, and if you would tell me which parts do and don't, I might learn something. "

Going into Practice for a match as well as THE match, controlled, calm emotions are critical. Stay focused and relaxed.

Shooting occasional score club matches has really helped me here Boyd ... To be more >>trusting<< of my equipment.... To be more confident in holding and manuvering the rifle for Group shoots.... Score really has.

Along with Charles statement:
"When you're shooting (successfully), you are not thinking. Instinct, or experience is what lets you hold off with some confidence."

Part of the calm focused approach that will allow you to be more instinctive to changing conditions....
If you have your equipment READY and good practice sessions, you can have the confidence to really dope the POA and keep the POI in a competitive size for the Agg. May not shoot the smallest groups of each match but you are "gunning" for the Agg!

Big factors IMOP.... Has certanly helped me in increasing my Agg wins.... As Mike Ratigan say's... IT'S ABOUT THE AGG.

cale
 
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Thanks for the replies. I use, typically, a free recoil style and a "heads down" looking through the scope style for the most part. I did utilize the free recoil "look last" or heads up style the other day and it worked well...sort of. The benches that we have require absolute dead calm or they will move you right out of the ten ring in any direction (I am working feverishly on this). It did allow me to feel more confident that the condition was at least present when I broke the trigger. When I went back to the free recoil 'head down" style I popped an 8 because the 75yd flag suddenly went full out.

I think that what you all stated with regard to practice is correct, and after I dropped the first point and then three more on the next relay I took the rest of the match as practice. I aspire to someday reach the condition of instinctive shooting that Charles mentioned, but I think it is going to be a few more rounds before I am there, if ever.

Boyd, as far as what relates to score vs group it is all equal in my opinion, though I may have a much different initial aiming point depending on what the mirage is doing. Once the group gets going or you move over to your first record target you still have to make those critical decisions on where to hold to hit your bullseye (be it a dot or a bullet hole). I have used the heads up technique in very challenging conditions, and I think what Charles said regarding practice is very true. I need more of it...but if I practiced as much as I would like there would be a very unhappy group at home and my career would quickly come to an end!

I have always shot my practice as though it were a match and timed myself. I am also known to be the guy who wants to shoot when the conditions are the worst during those practice days. I am shooting the postal matches this year and using them for exactly that purpose...making the most out of each session at the range.
Thanks for the advice, guys. I guess I need to shoot more. Such a problem to have, eh?
Mike Suhie
 
savet06 said:
When faced with this type of day do you try to pick out some semblance of a "condition" and try to shoot in that or try to focus on a few flags that tend to be more of an influence than others? Understanding that the "condition" will literally only last long enough to get one shot off before the vector changes completely. In other words do you shoot in that "snap shot" moment and wait for it to return?

Mike
Click to expand...

Man, I wish I knew the answer, too. I'm so bad at shooting in the wind, that what I do is try to shoot in the lightest wind, ideally when the daisies aren't turning. I know a lot of shooters avoid lulls, but I pick them out. If I've learned anything about shooting in the wind it is only that I need to constantly watch the flags - the whole field, not just my own lane - before and during trigger squeeze. A joy stick rest is not ideal for heads up shooting, the point of aim can shift a little. I try to see the flags with my left eye and through the scope with my right. It's hard to do, so far it's more like switching focus back and forth from one to the other. Having patience to wait for light wind often works, but one can get caught in high wind and the clock running down, too. I'm working on shooting quicker when the conditions are good, so that I don't have to wait for the condition to return.

I think focusing on a particular flag can get you in trouble. You have to watch all of them. I try to do a mental calculation of the combined bullet push from the wind direction and speed at each flag. Closer flags are worth more, higher speed and greater cross wind component are worth more. I keep a copy of Tony Boyer's bullet push chart on the bench in front of me. The sighter often tells me my calculation is wrong, but it feels really good when, with no time for a sighter, you hit an X at 200 or 300 yards based on an estimated hold off.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Mike,
Awesome question. I hope many reply to this, so that we can try different "techniques" out at the range to see what we like.

What I try and do on changing direction and changing velocity days (not saying this is right, but a guy's gotta have a plan) is:
1. Pick the wind direction and angle that happens the most
2. In that direction pick your lowest velocity you want to shoot. (this doesn't have to be a complete let up) I dislike shooting the push because when my tails are straight out - how do you know if it blows harder?
3. Set your scope so that if you hit the let up (in your picked range) you'll hit where you aim.
4. To figure out what is the max velocity you can "get away with" and still hit a 10 on the down wind side simply aim at the upwind 10 side and shoot in a "gust" and see where it goes. The stronger the wind the less of a range you can have.
5. On the record targets - start your aim point on the upwind edge of the 10 ring and wait. I believe in conditions this bad - 10's are what you are after not X's. I think this technique will give you the widest range of error. (you have the whole 10 ring plus 2 bullet diameters - which many times for me isn't enough)
6. If time starts running out - then you have to "RiverBoat Gamble", but at least you have an idea of where to start your aim.

When all the flags are doing different things - I usually pick the first one and make sure that it is perfect and the rest close (in the range you picked). Zeroing your rifle on a "let up" also allows you to only have to move the crosshairs one way(upwind) if time start running out.

That is what I try and do. Obviously, that was easier typed than done. It really sets up pretty quick and you can retain the info and add/subtract in the next relays.

One major thing to keep in mind is that, in conditions that bad, a dropped point or two will be the norm and not to give up - no matter what technique you use - especially when you move to 200.

Stanley
 
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Mike i wish i could give you a realy good answer to this one, but my scores this year show im no expert. As you know in ST J we never have a steady condition, i have found on the extra switchy days i tend to go into information overload, exspecialy when sharing a bench with some one whe has every thing but the kitchen sink out on the range to indicate wind, and end up just watching the last flag and hoping for alot of luck. I know this is a horrible habit and i need to break it some how. One thing i have leared not to do is shoot in a complete let up, but more in the start of a pic up. I have managed to luck out and end up as DR. Bills bench mate and seen how simple his flag set up is, and from what i can tell he tends to rely on a probe up close to the bench and one or two flags further down. He seems to shoot in the pick up also using each shot as his indicator for the next bull as the condition picks up, shooting fairly rapidly to keep from falling behind the pick up. Obvoulsy this reqires alot of confidence in your equipment and bench technuique, to know that where each shot goes is completly due to condition not shooter error. I am no where near beeing able to do this yet, but obvously it seems to work. The other thing i have found this year is to make sure if at all possible that you are shooting over your flags that you practice with. I have gotten lazy this year and have just shot over whose ever flags are set up on my lane rather than taking the time to put out at least a few of mine to compare back to the other flags on my lane. There may be small tell tails that you know about your flags, weather it be tail weight or daisy speed that you may not recognize on some one elses flag. I fully agree with every one about the amount of practice you need to put in. I remember my first year it was new and exciting and i shot at least 2-3 time a week, and some times every night the week b4 a match, and i feel i had some very nice scores for a factory rifle because of it, last year i started off hot and heavy and had a good start to the season, but due to a slow summer at work last summer i had to start rationing components and didnt even practice between matches near the end of the season to insure i had enough bullts to compete, my scores suffered and i became very frustrated. This year i saved up and bought more bullets than i could ever shoot in a season and hoped to get back on my practice schedule, but this year i can uderstand you statement on having a family and busness to take care of first. We lost our service manager at work early this spring, so i have kinda taken on that role, also upper management has put out an order that no firearms are to be carried in the company truck killing my ability to practice easily after work. now i have to drive 30 minutes home and get my personal truck to take the rifle back to st j, by the time i do this its getting dark and the wind is gone to practice in. I know i havnt given you the miracle answer but i hope a few of the dos and dont that i have seen and im trying to put into practice can help you too.
 
The other thing i have found this year is to make sure if at all possible that you are shooting over your flags that you practice with. I have gotten lazy this year and have just shot over whose ever flags are set up on my lane rather than taking the time to put out at least a few of mine to compare back to the other flags on my lane. There may be small tell tails that you know about your flags, weather it be tail weight or daisy speed that you may not recognize on some one elses flag.

I agree ... Color and vane shape, flag material ... >Your's< you know...... BUT... It's good to shoot over "strange to you" flags too..!

shooting fairly rapidly to keep from falling behind the pick up. Obvoulsy this reqires alot of confidence in your equipment and bench technuique, to know that where each shot goes is completly due to condition not shooter error. I am no where near beeing able to do this yet, but obvously it seems to work.

And shooting fairly rapidly to keep from "falling" behind the let-up........... Little dope for each... Lotta practice.. But DAMN it's great to shoot a simple nice .200 in rough conditions when ya hold a bullet or two to ....FINISH...! Love it..!
Or to do the same to keep'em in the 10 ring and cutting them X's...!

Williev18............ Your >>getting<< it..! You'll do well in this game.
cale
 
williev18 said:
Mike i wish i could give you a realy good answer to this one, but my scores this year show im no expert. As you know in ST J we never have a steady condition, i have found on the extra switchy days i tend to go into information overload, exspecialy when sharing a bench with some one whe has every thing but the kitchen sink out on the range to indicate wind, and end up just watching the last flag and hoping for alot of luck. I know this is a horrible habit and i need to break it some how. One thing i have leared not to do is shoot in a complete let up, but more in the start of a pic up. I have managed to luck out and end up as DR. Bills bench mate and seen how simple his flag set up is, and from what i can tell he tends to rely on a probe up close to the bench and one or two flags further down. He seems to shoot in the pick up also using each shot as his indicator for the next bull as the condition picks up, shooting fairly rapidly to keep from falling behind the pick up. Obvoulsy this reqires alot of confidence in your equipment and bench technuique, to know that where each shot goes is completly due to condition not shooter error. I am no where near beeing able to do this yet, but obvously it seems to work. The other thing i have found this year is to make sure if at all possible that you are shooting over your flags that you practice with. I have gotten lazy this year and have just shot over whose ever flags are set up on my lane rather than taking the time to put out at least a few of mine to compare back to the other flags on my lane. There may be small tell tails that you know about your flags, weather it be tail weight or daisy speed that you may not recognize on some one elses flag. I fully agree with every one about the amount of practice you need to put in. I remember my first year it was new and exciting and i shot at least 2-3 time a week, and some times every night the week b4 a match, and i feel i had some very nice scores for a factory rifle because of it, last year i started off hot and heavy and had a good start to the season, but due to a slow summer at work last summer i had to start rationing components and didnt even practice between matches near the end of the season to insure i had enough bullts to compete, my scores suffered and i became very frustrated. This year i saved up and bought more bullets than i could ever shoot in a season and hoped to get back on my practice schedule, but this year i can uderstand you statement on having a family and busness to take care of first. We lost our service manager at work early this spring, so i have kinda taken on that role, also upper management has put out an order that no firearms are to be carried in the company truck killing my ability to practice easily after work. now i have to drive 30 minutes home and get my personal truck to take the rifle back to st j, by the time i do this its getting dark and the wind is gone to practice in. I know i havnt given you the miracle answer but i hope a few of the dos and dont that i have seen and im trying to put into practice can help you too.
Click to expand...

good post

thanks

al
 
Don`t be greedy with your bullets.
Shooting in the wind can be your best friend. Go to the line loaded with extra rounds for sighters. Shooting for score allows you unlimited sighters. If your front rest won`t allow quick and precise adjustment from the sighter to record targets, get one that will!!! practice on targets just as you would a match, where you are moving up, down, side to side, and always back to the sighter. I feel the best condition reader is your last shot!!
Jeff
 
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