group spreading

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neg_ion13

Guest
Hello,

I am having a problem that just started recently. I have only been shooting since September but was able to do well enough to get sub MOA groups at 100 yds after my third trip to the range. I have a Savage 12 FV chambered in a .223 with 1:9 twist.

After doing a lot of reading to find the best way to clean my rifle bore I found a lot of people say not to scrub use certain bore cleaners that contain ammonias and not to use the brass brush too often. I know in my head the if a copper bullet with 55,000 psi of pressure behind it won't damage the bore then the brass brush probably won't damage the lands. Still I didn't want to damage my first rifle so I only used a carbon fiber cleaning rod to avoid scratching the barrel, Hoppe's 9 solution to remove carbon and powder fowling and a plastic brush to scrub the bore. This worked quite well for me until I had shot about 350 rounds through it. Then my group started to spread a little. I figured it was time to give a real cleaning and got Hoppe's 9 Bench Rest copper solvent cleaner and a switched to a brass brush. The trip to the range I expected the shots to be a little farther apart than normal until I had soft a few rounds through it. The grouping was better but still not anywhere near what is used to be. I did a second thorough cleaning and went back same results. Now I am getting really erratic shot groupings. Today I shot 6 rounds to close together that there was no paper connecting the holes then the rest of the shots were all over the place easily 4". I haven't had that bad of groupings since I first shot started shooting. Of course someone was watching and just had to walk up to me and say "You know your shooting about 4", that's not very good".:mad: No $h!t buddy, thanks.

This could be a coincidence but I also switched ammo at the same time this all started to happen. I normally shoot PMC which have worked very well for me. For some reason no one seems to be selling them in my area so I switched to Hornady, which I assumed would be a better bullet manufacturer. I'm sure waiting so long to give it a thorough cleaning was a bad rookie mistake.

Any ideas? Should I admit defeat and have a gunsmith check my bore and crown?

thanks
 
Defeat? Hell no!

I assume you're using a bore guide, and that you're careful to clean from the breech, not the muzzle?

Also, copper solvent will eat bronze (what you're calling brass) brushes. Forget the brushes altogether; use patches, on a proper-size jag. Not too tight -- otherwise the solvent gets squeezed out before it gets down the bore.

Your groups opened up because you changed ammo, or because your scope mounts are loose -- not because you cleaned the rifle.

Have somebody else shoot the rifle as a double-check.

And don't waste any time or money have your rifle re-crowned. That's like re-soling your shoes after you fell down the stairs because you tripped over the cat.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you suspect your crown is damaged check it with a q-tip. Simple test to eliminate that. If cotton hangs up its no good.
 
neg_ion13 said:
Hello,

I am having a problem that just started recently. I have only been shooting since September but was able to do well enough to get sub MOA groups at 100 yds after my third trip to the range. I have a Savage 12 FV chambered in a .223 with 1:9 twist.

After doing a lot of reading to find the best way to clean my rifle bore I found a lot of people say not to scrub use certain bore cleaners that contain ammonias and not to use the brass brush too often. I know in my head the if a copper bullet with 55,000 psi of pressure behind it won't damage the bore then the brass brush probably won't damage the lands.This could be a coincidence but I also switched ammo at the same time this all started to happen. I normally shoot PMC which have worked very well for me. For some reason no one seems to be selling them in my area so I switched to Hornady, which I assumed would be a better bullet manufacturer. I'm sure waiting so long to give it a thorough cleaning was a bad rookie mistake.

Any ideas? Should I admit defeat and have a gunsmith check my bore and crown?

thanks
Click to expand...

You are changing factory loads and not expecting a change in results?? Think again.

As to not using good quality bronze brushes, anyone who says they can thoroughly clean their barrel without scrubbing with a brush is not using a borescope to check the results. Sure, copper solvents will eventually damage a bronze brush, it will eventually wear out too. You can extend bronze brush life by washing it out after each barrel scrubbing with plain rubbing alcohol (at 79 cents a bottle), or mineral spirits.
 
You have a lot of work in front of you if you want your Savage to shoot consistently small groups.First and foremost is you need to learn to hand load for your rifle. Your expectation's for factory ammo are sadly lacking. Different manufactures of ammo use different powders and different bullets( all bullets are not created equally) bullet ogives differ and this will create part of the problem your experiencing. Most BR shooters clean with bronze bristle brushes, and they clean predominently after each match of 5 record shots with unlimited sighters in 7 minutes, and they typically shoot 10 targets per day so thats a lot of cleaning. As was stated above use a good bore guide caliber specific, toss out your hoppes or use it for your hunting rifles! Get Some Butch's Bore Shine and pickup a can of Brake cleaner. Start cleaning with 2 wet patches and then 10-12 strokes with a bore brush wet with the butch's bore cleaner( do not dip the brush in the bottle), then use the can of spraqy brake cleaner to hose off the brush. next 1 more wet patch then let the barrell soak for a few minutes. Then start pushing patches through until you get a clean one. the last thing I do is a couple of drops of Montana Extreme bore conditioner on a patch and run it through the barrel, I use that patch without adding any more bore conditioner all day. This seems to settle down the clean barrel quickly when I shoot the next match. During a match I will also do one clean using Slip 2000 carbon Killer.
You did not indicte where those shots that are out of the group are at ! are they high or low or left and right! If your not using wind flags you should make a set of 3-5 and learn to use them. Like an earlier post said you need to check all screws action, scope to ensure they are all torqued correctly. If you want to get better get a mentor and listen to what he tells you. If your are trying to get to extreme accuracy I would also suggest you get one of 2 books by Tony Boyer or Mike Ratigans on extreme rifle accuracy. there are so many good tips in these books that will show you the way.
Don't expect any consistent results until you start to handload, because factory ammo won't get you to where your headed. good luck.
 
Lot of good info above!

If your accuracy problems started at the time you switched ammo, that might be the key. Some factory ammo just ain't good....

You targets will always look as bad as the wind blows...unless you have wind flags and let the wind be your friend.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

@Dusty I tried the q-tip test and no cotton caught on the crown.

I didn't expect to get better than 1 MOA with factory loads but I am really surprised at how changing from 1 manufacturer to another could have that dramatic of an effect. Especially from an alleged cheaper ammo like PMC to a better ammo like Hornady. We're talking going from all rounds inside the bullseye and number 10 circle with the PMC to spread out left, right and up from the edge of the bullseye to the very outer ring of the 9 circle with the Hornady. This rifle did not shoot this sporadically when I first started so it has me a little panicked as I really enjoy target shooting.

That day was a little windy but I watched the blades of grass down range and waited for them to stop before firing each shot.

I definitely use a bore guide with a carbon fiber rod that has bearings to allow it to rotate. From now on I will clean with the brush after every trip to the range and see if this gets me back to at least how the rifle performed when it was newer.

@ Steelhead1 I will also try a different solvent as you suggested and get those books. I can't find a mentor as everyone I know only wants to put 500 rounds through their AR-15 and couldn't care less how close their groups are. I guess I'll just have to come on here and bug you guys. I'm scheming on a hand-loading kit but I have wait for the opportune moment to convince my wife it's a good investment.

I am just assuming Hornady is better factory ammo. I guess the obvious thing to do is find more PMCs and compare the results. After this and the fact my bolt can't slide the next round into the chamber because the rim is to small is really turning me off from them. I have to slide almost every round forward a little in the magazine so the case will catch and slide forward otherwise it will glide right over the top. No other brand has given me this much trouble.

Thanks again for all of your feedback. I will employ all of these suggestions.
 
If you can find some black hills ammo loaded with 69gr sierras you may find your groups improving. I hand load for my savage .223 and different bullets like that 1:9 twist and others don't.
Couldn't get 77gr BTHP nor 55gr varmint-types to shoot inside an inch, but the 69gr and 52gr BTHP sierra's always shot well...both with completely different powders and charges. My brother-in-laws gun would shoot the cheap-o 40gr white box stuff real well, too. Never shot it in my rifle so I can't speak to it.



Mike
 
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