Gene
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
Gene Beggs
Active member
Thanks Wilbur
Good point Wilbur, I'm glad you asked and I'm sure there are many who are wondering the same thing. By the way,, I'm very excited about your upcoming visit to the tunnel and look forward to working with you.
Before one can understand how and why a tuner such as mine works, he must first have a good understanding of how barrels vibrate when fired. You know me, I'm always looking for ways to simplify everything and barrel vibration is no exception. The computer generated modeling of Vaughn, Varmint Al and others is great and I'm very impressed, but I assure you, we shooters need not go into such detail.
Yes, we know that firing pin fall has an effect on barrel vibration, we also know that 'uptight' triggers, (yeah, that's the opposite of 'relaxed triggers) have an effect, but these factors are so miniscule and inconsequental that they can be completely ignored. We also know that barrels twist, torque, turn, shimmy, shake and do all sorts of wierd things before the bullet exits, but, you know what; there is only one simple thing about barrel vibration that we shooters need to understand and it can be demonstrated perfectly with a cleaning rod.
Take the longest most flexible cleaning rod you have and let it hang vertically between your thumb and middle finger. Notice the rod hangs straight down with no bow. Now hold the rod horizontally by the handle like you would an ice pick you were going to stick into the wall. Notice that gravity causes the tip of the rod to droop. Now, strike the back of the handle with your other hand and notice the vibration pattern that results. The rod humps up in the middle, the point deflects down and a vibration pattern is set in motion in which there is a node or motionless point five or six inches aft of the point. This is exactly what a rifle barrel does when fired and believe it or not, this is the ONLY mode of vibration that we shooters need to worry about.
So,,, now we understand; the barrel whips up and down in the vertical plane when fired. If it's a good barrel, and was installed on a good action in the correct position, it vibrates only in the vertical plane.
"Oh no,, wait a minute Beggs, you're wrong!" someone said.
We will get into that another time; for now, let's concentrate on tuners.
So,, if the muzzle vibrates, or 'whips up and down' as I often say, as the bullet accelerates down the bore, we know it is slowing and coming to a complete stop at both the top and bottom of its swing. If we can time the bullet's exit to coincide with one or the other of these 'stops', dispersion caused by variations in velocity is minimized. But how do we do that?
The time honored method has always been to reduce the powder charge slightly if the bullets are exiting before the muzzle completey stops, but with the advent of tuners we now have the option of 'speeding up the barrel' to compensate and vice versa. As I have said many times before, think of my type tuner as a focus ring or dial that raises and lowers the vibration frequency of the barrel.
With barrel vibration well understood, we will then move on to a simple but very effective demonstration that lets you feel, hear and observe how a tuner varies the frequency of a barrel. Then, and only then, will we proceed to actual shooting.
We will set up my HV rifle, "Ol' Bud" and load a block of cartridges. We will loosen the tuner and screw it all the way in to the stop and back it off one turn, placing the pointer at 12:00 o'clock. After a couple of foulers and maybe one sighter to get the rifle hitting where we want, we will fire a two or three shot group. If the group shows the rifle is obviously out of tune, but not what we judge to be completely, 180 degrees out, we will need to make only a quarter turn on the tuner to bring it in.."But, which way?" you ask, "A quarter turn IN or OUT?" It doesn't matter!
That's right, just give the tuner a quarter turn in either direction, fire a three shot group, and if the group gets smaller you know you went the right direction. If the group gets bigger, you know you went wrong, in which case you go back where you started and make a quarter turn in the other direction and the rifle will be in tune. Simple? Yeah,, it really is that simple!
We will go into exercises that require you to make adjustments to compensate for changes in atmospheric conditions, review bullet seating depth, sizing die setup, etc. We will take a good look at your rifle handling and see if any improvements can be made there and anything else you want to cover. I gaurantee, you will have fun and learn a lot.
Looking forward to your visit
Later,
Gene Beggs
Good point Wilbur, I'm glad you asked and I'm sure there are many who are wondering the same thing. By the way,, I'm very excited about your upcoming visit to the tunnel and look forward to working with you.
Before one can understand how and why a tuner such as mine works, he must first have a good understanding of how barrels vibrate when fired. You know me, I'm always looking for ways to simplify everything and barrel vibration is no exception. The computer generated modeling of Vaughn, Varmint Al and others is great and I'm very impressed, but I assure you, we shooters need not go into such detail.
Yes, we know that firing pin fall has an effect on barrel vibration, we also know that 'uptight' triggers, (yeah, that's the opposite of 'relaxed triggers) have an effect, but these factors are so miniscule and inconsequental that they can be completely ignored. We also know that barrels twist, torque, turn, shimmy, shake and do all sorts of wierd things before the bullet exits, but, you know what; there is only one simple thing about barrel vibration that we shooters need to understand and it can be demonstrated perfectly with a cleaning rod.
Take the longest most flexible cleaning rod you have and let it hang vertically between your thumb and middle finger. Notice the rod hangs straight down with no bow. Now hold the rod horizontally by the handle like you would an ice pick you were going to stick into the wall. Notice that gravity causes the tip of the rod to droop. Now, strike the back of the handle with your other hand and notice the vibration pattern that results. The rod humps up in the middle, the point deflects down and a vibration pattern is set in motion in which there is a node or motionless point five or six inches aft of the point. This is exactly what a rifle barrel does when fired and believe it or not, this is the ONLY mode of vibration that we shooters need to worry about.
So,,, now we understand; the barrel whips up and down in the vertical plane when fired. If it's a good barrel, and was installed on a good action in the correct position, it vibrates only in the vertical plane.
"Oh no,, wait a minute Beggs, you're wrong!" someone said.
We will get into that another time; for now, let's concentrate on tuners.
So,, if the muzzle vibrates, or 'whips up and down' as I often say, as the bullet accelerates down the bore, we know it is slowing and coming to a complete stop at both the top and bottom of its swing. If we can time the bullet's exit to coincide with one or the other of these 'stops', dispersion caused by variations in velocity is minimized. But how do we do that?
The time honored method has always been to reduce the powder charge slightly if the bullets are exiting before the muzzle completey stops, but with the advent of tuners we now have the option of 'speeding up the barrel' to compensate and vice versa. As I have said many times before, think of my type tuner as a focus ring or dial that raises and lowers the vibration frequency of the barrel.
With barrel vibration well understood, we will then move on to a simple but very effective demonstration that lets you feel, hear and observe how a tuner varies the frequency of a barrel. Then, and only then, will we proceed to actual shooting.
We will set up my HV rifle, "Ol' Bud" and load a block of cartridges. We will loosen the tuner and screw it all the way in to the stop and back it off one turn, placing the pointer at 12:00 o'clock. After a couple of foulers and maybe one sighter to get the rifle hitting where we want, we will fire a two or three shot group. If the group shows the rifle is obviously out of tune, but not what we judge to be completely, 180 degrees out, we will need to make only a quarter turn on the tuner to bring it in.."But, which way?" you ask, "A quarter turn IN or OUT?" It doesn't matter!
That's right, just give the tuner a quarter turn in either direction, fire a three shot group, and if the group gets smaller you know you went the right direction. If the group gets bigger, you know you went wrong, in which case you go back where you started and make a quarter turn in the other direction and the rifle will be in tune. Simple? Yeah,, it really is that simple!
We will go into exercises that require you to make adjustments to compensate for changes in atmospheric conditions, review bullet seating depth, sizing die setup, etc. We will take a good look at your rifle handling and see if any improvements can be made there and anything else you want to cover. I gaurantee, you will have fun and learn a lot.
Looking forward to your visit
Later,
Gene Beggs
Can the tuner be removed without a lot of trouble?
I'd like to see a rifle go from in tune to out of tune with the same load and then see the same thing with a tuner installed. Then...turn the tuner and bring it back in tune.
Do the conditions change in the tunnel enough to make this observation over a couple of days?
One more question..Is it a requirement that one understand how or why a tuner works to utilize a tuner?
I'd like to see a rifle go from in tune to out of tune with the same load and then see the same thing with a tuner installed. Then...turn the tuner and bring it back in tune.
Do the conditions change in the tunnel enough to make this observation over a couple of days?
One more question..Is it a requirement that one understand how or why a tuner works to utilize a tuner?
Gene Beggs
Active member
No, I suppose not, but it is better if one understands why he is doing something rather than doing it by rote.
Later,
Gene Beggs
Jerry Dailey
Southron
Thank you Wilbur---
You are doing a good deed for our community and I know that you will give a fair and accurate assement of what you find
You are doing a good deed for our community and I know that you will give a fair and accurate assement of what you find
I'll make every attempt to understand the various theories
Your theory has priority.
________________
Gene wrote:
"So,,, now we understand; the barrel whips up and down in the vertical plane when fired. If it's a good barrel, and was installed on a good action in the correct position, it vibrates only in the vertical plane."
_________________
Is correct barrel position/installation a requisite for the tuner to work?
Your theory has priority.
________________
Gene wrote:
"So,,, now we understand; the barrel whips up and down in the vertical plane when fired. If it's a good barrel, and was installed on a good action in the correct position, it vibrates only in the vertical plane."
_________________
Is correct barrel position/installation a requisite for the tuner to work?
Gene Beggs
Active member
No.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Tunnel vision prediction
With the upcoming event of the first episodes of "Wilbur Goes to West Texas",
I predict this new mini-series will replace the Reality TV crap and even replace American Idiot and Desperate Whorse Wives.
With the upcoming event of the first episodes of "Wilbur Goes to West Texas",
I predict this new mini-series will replace the Reality TV crap and even replace American Idiot and Desperate Whorse Wives.
G
graybeard
Guest
Wilbur
Why don't you also take a 22 rimfire BR gun and test Gene's tuner on it compaired to the tuner set up you currently have on the gun. I don't know if rimfire guns are welcome at his place.
Jim Pollard
Why don't you also take a 22 rimfire BR gun and test Gene's tuner on it compaired to the tuner set up you currently have on the gun. I don't know if rimfire guns are welcome at his place.
Jim Pollard
Gene Beggs
Active member
Wilbur, no need to bring a rimfire. I have a nice Messer built Hall we can use. I'll have one of my tuners on it before you arrive.
Rimfires? Yeah, they're welcome, but you will have to shoot them at 100 yds., not 50.
Gene Beggs
Rimfires? Yeah, they're welcome, but you will have to shoot them at 100 yds., not 50.
Gene Beggs
Good point Jerry
If nobody is going to believe the result, there would be no purpose. If all minds are already made I can stay home.
Speak up now please!
Probably would be a good idea to summarize the effort:
The claimer is that a tuner is a worthwhile addition to a rifle in that the tuner can be adjusted to sustain a potential that is not self sustaining.
Gene has offered to prove this and I have agreed (if only to myself) to recognize/acknowledge it when I see it. Please note that there is no intent to wallow in theory. Gene's rifle, Gene's tuner, and Gene's system is the extent.
"Not self sustaining" will need to be established somehow. That is important to me on many levels - important enough to justify the trip within itself.
The only option I have is to report what happened. Subsequent assessment by all will surely follow.
If nobody is going to believe the result, there would be no purpose. If all minds are already made I can stay home.
Speak up now please!
Probably would be a good idea to summarize the effort:
The claimer is that a tuner is a worthwhile addition to a rifle in that the tuner can be adjusted to sustain a potential that is not self sustaining.
Gene has offered to prove this and I have agreed (if only to myself) to recognize/acknowledge it when I see it. Please note that there is no intent to wallow in theory. Gene's rifle, Gene's tuner, and Gene's system is the extent.
"Not self sustaining" will need to be established somehow. That is important to me on many levels - important enough to justify the trip within itself.
The only option I have is to report what happened. Subsequent assessment by all will surely follow.
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
I would love to see some photos of these tuners...
I have read page after page after page... I'm tired of reading, I want some pictures...
If you don't know how to post pictures, email them to me and I will post them.
Wilbur, when you come back I will believe what ever you post. Take a camera.
I have read page after page after page... I'm tired of reading, I want some pictures...
If you don't know how to post pictures, email them to me and I will post them.
Wilbur, when you come back I will believe what ever you post. Take a camera.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Wilbur
All joking aside, I can't wait to get your prospective. I know you have had much analytical experience in your old day job at the TVA nuclear plant.
Besides, "the hammers of hell" may need one of these new-fangled gadgets.
All joking aside, I can't wait to get your prospective. I know you have had much analytical experience in your old day job at the TVA nuclear plant.
Besides, "the hammers of hell" may need one of these new-fangled gadgets.
Wilbur Harris
Wilbur it would be geat if you could add additional weight to Gene's tuner even if it made the gun illegal for its class to see if Bill Calfee was right.You could use one load at 48 clcks another at 54 clicks and add additional weight until they converge on the target.
You would then compare accuracy over a 5 group agg with each design.
Lynn
Wilbur it would be geat if you could add additional weight to Gene's tuner even if it made the gun illegal for its class to see if Bill Calfee was right.You could use one load at 48 clcks another at 54 clicks and add additional weight until they converge on the target.
You would then compare accuracy over a 5 group agg with each design.
Lynn
Effectively, the rimfire question does not exist
Good, bad, right, wrong, yes, no or otherwise....the weight of opinion carries the vote. The weight of opinion became heavy for reason and should not (can not) be taken lightly.
As food for thought, suppose for a moment that conclusive proof, proof that could not possibly be refuted, was published that adjustable rimfire tuners were of no benefit. The response to that writing would simply be - "BULLSHIRT !!"
Some ditches ain't worth dying in....
That said, I see no reason not to take a look at Gene's tuner as applied to rimfire while I'm there so long as Gene is willing - and it appears he is.
Good, bad, right, wrong, yes, no or otherwise....the weight of opinion carries the vote. The weight of opinion became heavy for reason and should not (can not) be taken lightly.
As food for thought, suppose for a moment that conclusive proof, proof that could not possibly be refuted, was published that adjustable rimfire tuners were of no benefit. The response to that writing would simply be - "BULLSHIRT !!"
Some ditches ain't worth dying in....
That said, I see no reason not to take a look at Gene's tuner as applied to rimfire while I'm there so long as Gene is willing - and it appears he is.
Lynn
It would seem inappropriate to use Gene's facility and time to do that.
I do agree that your "request" needs to happen if for no other reason than a "second opinion" to Bill's finding. I offer to do it supplied the parts to do it with. I don't have a machine shop but I have a rifle, barrels and components in every corner of the house.....help me develop a method and I'm there.....anybody.....
Frankly, I think I have already seen Bill's "theory" at work based on the few "hummer" barrels I had along the way. These barrels would not fall from tune - absolutely would not falter day in day out. These bullets, those bullets, this powder, that powder, load be damned, etc... The prevailing condition more often than not dictates the point of impact so I don't know much about that. I won a lot of trophies with these barrels.
I've also had barrels that were very much competitive one day and not the next. These are the barrels that sell locked up scopes and keep the shipping lines to Oregon running. If an added weight would eliminate the "not" days for this barrel I'm all in!
It would seem inappropriate to use Gene's facility and time to do that.
I do agree that your "request" needs to happen if for no other reason than a "second opinion" to Bill's finding. I offer to do it supplied the parts to do it with. I don't have a machine shop but I have a rifle, barrels and components in every corner of the house.....help me develop a method and I'm there.....anybody.....
Frankly, I think I have already seen Bill's "theory" at work based on the few "hummer" barrels I had along the way. These barrels would not fall from tune - absolutely would not falter day in day out. These bullets, those bullets, this powder, that powder, load be damned, etc... The prevailing condition more often than not dictates the point of impact so I don't know much about that. I won a lot of trophies with these barrels.
I've also had barrels that were very much competitive one day and not the next. These are the barrels that sell locked up scopes and keep the shipping lines to Oregon running. If an added weight would eliminate the "not" days for this barrel I'm all in!