Gauging interest in affordable bullet pointing die?

J

JasonT

Guest
Hey folks, I know this is my first post, but I thought I might as well jump right in!

My name is Jason, and I'm a engineer and prototyper by day, but a gunsmith by night. I wanted to combine those 2 ideas for a potential product.

So I'd been doing some CAD modeling and research on aerodynamics as of late, and the Whidden/Hoover Bullet Pointing System kept popping up. So I decided to take a look at the design to figure out how it worked. I really like it! It's solid, adjustable, and customizable to just about any bullet.

But I definitely saw room for improvement in two main areas: simplicity and cost. With all of the different sleeves, pointing plugs, etc... the system is definitely more complex that it would need to be. As far as cost goes, a full range of 8 sleeves, 3 pointing plugs, and the die body would go for more than $640. While that's certainly OK for the dedicated Benchrest shooter who's sponsored and paid to shoot, it's far too much money for the average Joe.

As such, I've come up with an idea (and a prototype) for a bullet pointing die that would:
a. Not infringe on the Whidden/Hoover patent. It's a great system, but more complicated and expensive than it needs to be for the average long range shooter.
b. Be much less complex than the Whidden/Hoover design while retaining 90-95% of its abilities.
c. Cost less than $200 for the whole system of 8 calibers and 2-3 pointing plugs.

Does anybody have any interest in something like this? I know it's made a difference in my long-range targets already.

Best wishes,

Jason
 
who is this guy ?? paid to shoot long range bench rest?

JasonT said:
While that's certainly OK for the dedicated Benchrest shooter who's sponsored and paid to shoot, it's far too much money for the average Joe.

Jason
Click to expand...
 
Have you done any tests to see if your die compromises the core to jacket bond? I cant think of a single br shooter that points bullets. How much improvement could we get on our .300 something bc bullets we shoot?
 
Good Points!

Dusty that's a good point you raise, I'll have to do some gelatin tests to determine if that's being compromised. My preliminary analyses say no, because the area of the jacket being swaged doesn't really contact the lead at all. I could see in very short, flat-based bullets that the lead might well extend up into the tip, which might present a pointing problem. But in the 175gr-230gr class of .30cal bullets (600+ yd), the tips are quite hollow. In my somewhat limited experience, people generally don't bother pointing bullets unless they're the heavier bullets for the caliber and they're being shot at longer (500+yd) ranges.

Tim, you are correct, this probably wouldn't make much difference at ranges less than 300yd or more. But it certainly would increase the consistency of the points. It's just one less thing you'd have to worry about being inconsistent.

To all, the biggest differences come from pointing smaller bullets in general (6mm, 6.5mm) as the meplat (tip) of the bullet represents a much larger % of the total area that's compressing the air in front of the bullet. The compression of the air in front of the bullet is one of the biggest factors in slowing a bullet down. If you can point the tips down to a small area, you effectively reduce the amount of compressed air on the front of the bullet, as more of the air goes around the bullet. Those brave souls shooting 6mm bullets out to 1000 yards could benefit from this idea most I think.

If Mr. Brian Litz could weigh in that would be very informative, but I do think he'll support my initial analysis of the science behind pointing. I remember reading a blurb he wrote about pointing on his website: most long range bullets will benefit between 2-8% in BC. And there are no discernible downsides (other than cost).

To those with questions/concerns, do you have any suggestions? Such as types of things you'd like to see in the die system?

At the moment, I'm attempting to contact Jim Hardy regarding the original patents - I don't want to step on anybody's toes.

Jason
 
I'm sure you've thought of this
I would send a few sets out to some of the guys in LR br or F class for testing. Some good reviews would go a long way
 
Good idea Tim,

I could definitely get on board with the idea of that. I've just been concerned about infringing on the current patents for similar systems. So I'm trying to get that ironed out before I start more extensive development.

Do you have any suggestions for reputable shooters who would be receptive to trying out the system? I could always offer to point a box of bullets for free for them to try. They'd just have to mail me the box of their preferred bullets and I'd return it ASAP with perfect points.
 
Ferris Pindell made several dies that would add a "needle" point, as he called it. Joel Kendrick bought the one Ferris kept. Joel tested it out at Hawks Ridge and found out it would take about 12" off the drop at 1000 yards.

Joel pointed me up 4 different boxes, 68 Bergers, 88 fb Bergers, some 65 Watsons and something else. At the 100/200 distance I couldn't see any difference.

Ferris took some "needel point" bullets to the Crawfish one time. Don Geraci said they would defy the wind....we found out later they were 80 grainers made on 0.910" jackets!


.
 
Wow Jerry! That's a really cool story - Do I recall correctly that Ferris Pindell helped develop the original/predecessor to the Whidden/Hoover design?

The reduction in drop is definitely a big plus to pointing, but I think the increased consistency in the tip shape is a bigger plus yet! I've read studies about the decreased vertical dispersion of the shots at long ranges too.

Hornady, Sierra, and Nosler are definitely making a name for the "tipped" style of bullets. I like the A-maxs a lot, and they're inexpensive to boot! But pointing the copper is definitely a stronger way to deflect the air around the bullet. I've heard stories of the plastic tips deforming at high speeds, and the copper is far less likely to do that from a chemical/physical standpoint.

I'm not in this to made oodles of money, just want to come up with a product that more people can afford to play with!

I'm debating whether a micrometer-type of adjustment stem makes practical sense. It sure looks cool, but I don't think it makes any real difference since each lot of bullets is different anyway. Do you guys have opinions on the matter?
 
Yes ease of adjustment and more universal inserts to cover more bullets. To be consistent you need to trim first (look at any meplat under magnification) so a good way to trim may be the more wise investment. Check out a giraud trimmer for examples
 
JasonT said:
..... snip............
c. Cost less than $200 for the whole system of 8 calibers and 2-3 pointing plugs.

Does anybody have any interest in something like this? I know it's made a difference in my long-range targets already.
Click to expand...

I do, especially if I could buy only one caliber, the one I use for competition, for even less money.

I wonder if the costs of a bullet pointing system could be reduced if it were a "kit" which would fit into a die body already offered on the market for some other purpose, a seating or resizing die, for example.

In other words, if I could disassemble one of my existing dies and drop in a couple of components needed for pointing bullets, then it seems that the cost might go down even further.

I would presume the "kit" would fit only one brand and type of existing die. If I didn't already own it, I would have to buy it, but at least I would have another seating or sizing die to add to my collection and I would presume the "donor" die would be in the fifty or sixty dollar range. In other words, you would only have to re-invent half the wheel, so to speak.

Would this be possible, or not?
 
Mozella, that's an awesome idea. In fact, that's how I started with my first prototype. The issue I found among all of the different seater dies I've tried is that the tolerances are pretty "relaxed." I'm on my 3rd gen prototype right now, and I'm finding that in order to maintain the super tight tolerances required, the die bodies would all have to be consistent +/- 0.0005". As such, I've had to create my own die body as well.


Mozella, if you PM me, we can talk about a one-off sample for you.
 
Pointing Die

Jason.... Great idea.... and I hope you pursue it.......I`m interested in a set...... first I`d like to try a 7mm.... to evaluate....
bill larson
 
Hey Bill,

I sent you a PM about trying one out - let me know if that sounds appealing!
 
Update - Possible Meplat Trimmer Too?

So a bunch of people, many of whom are notable F-class shooters, have mentioned to me that coming out with a Meplat Trimmer would be a good idea as well.

After a large amount of research and CAD modeling, I may have come up with a design that takes the best aspects from all different designs (Sinclair, Hoover, MCR, Giraud, WFT (technically not a meplat trimmer), etc...).

I still have yet to actually make the damn thing and try it out, so I'm sure there are surprises of which I'm unaware, but I'll keep you all posted.

Any design points you all would like incorporated?
 
You cant reliably point without trimming. High speed end mill is my vote. Like i said earlier check the giraud. Also it needs to be spring loaded so you can seat the bullet then push it to trim. Also need a micrometer adjustment. Incorporate the pma case trimmer into a giraud and you got a winner. I need the first one
 
Good point Dusty!

I really like the idea of adding the spring - I don't think it would be too hard or expensive either.

The micrometer will definitely increase the final price for sure, but I also think it's not entirely necessary because the ogive to tip length varies wildly by bullet shape. You obviously have more experience than I, so please tell me if I'm wrong.

Ok so like the Giraud, you'd all like it powered? Or would you prefer something adaptable from hand-crank to drill.

Just so you guys are aware, I'm trying to maximize the quality of materials (All stainless/premium parts) while maintaining price competitiveness by leaving out the unnecessary bells and whistles.

If there are truly some bells and some whistles that need to be there, please voice your opinions!

Jason
 
JasonT said:
So a bunch of people, many of whom are notable F-class shooters, have mentioned to me that coming out with a Meplat Trimmer would be a good idea as well.

..... snip.........Any design points you all would like incorporated?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I use a MCR Meplat Tool. It's the one with the tiny countersink to re-cut, uniform, and deburr the inner part of the hollow point after you trim it. Unfortunately, you also have to use a different technique to deburr the outer edge. It's a wonderful tool, but after doing the first fifty bullets and looking at the remaining ones, I go into deep depression because no matter how well it works, it takes quite a while to do the job. Reloading is fun until I start feeling like a kid from Bangladesh making 10 cents an hour doing production work, and fiddly work at that.

I haven't timed the MCR procedure, but it seems like it takes the best part of minute, including careful inspection to be sure the job is done correctly, before the cartridge goes back into the ammo box.

My WFT case trimmer, on the other hand, is a joy to use. Just grab a case, turn on the drill motor, jam it in with a twist, wait until you can feel the cutting action stop, and you're done in a matter of seconds. No need to inspect each case; just trim and toss. It's a simple and easy answer to case trimming and I'm satisfied with both the price and the way it works.

A similar Meplat trimmer driven by a drill would, it seems to me, be a good answer to the requirement to trim before pointing, especially if a small inner and/or outer burr produced during the trimming stage is acceptable.
 
Id rather have something high speed thats in a stable enough platform it wont be like an afterthought added to a drill. In a box sitting on a table. You dont have to use an actual micrometer head just make it easily adjustable like a micrometer seating top. A giraud is a pain to adjust. You use a stamped metal wrench and a coarse thread nut.
 
Jason T has anyone thought of using disks like they use for valve grinding to do the Meplat's? Or would it just push the tip to one side? Something I've thought about but I'm not a machinist.

Joe Salt
 
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