Gas Block/Shoulder, Lilja Barrel, and an Old Gunsmith

pwsamiam

pwsamiam

New member
I had Lilja and an old gunsmith set me up with a 22ARC 24" 1:8 bull barrel and so far the rifle shoots great without any problems at all.
The 12 shot Lilja breakin produced 2ea 1 hole 3 shot groups at 50yds and all subsequent 100yd groups were 0.3-0.9. Very happy. But...

When I asked the old gunsmith about a +1 gas tube, he replied that he will make the rifle upper with a standard rifle length gas tube. A little perplexed, I wondered why, and he insisted that people were reporting problems from the range using a +1 port/tube. The gunsmith put my gas block on the chamber side of the shoulder vice the muzzle side, thus the standard rifle length tube and not as +1 tube.

Ejection is excellent, well within the 3-4oclock zone with 75gr and 62gr 22ARC from Hornady. No feed or lock-back issues.
I will experiment with Hornady Precision Hunter 80gr ELD-X, but will take coyotes with the 62gr ELD-VT and target practice.

Also, note he AR15 rifle is not suppressed, just a crown with no muzzle device at all.

My concern is likely "much ado about nothing."
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."????
 

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You could run into problems (especially rim lifts) using slower powders with heavy bullets. I use a +2 gas system on my 28" .223 spacegun using 75 gr bullets with N-550; even with an adjustable gas block there were problems. If you're shooting light bullets and powders at at the faster end of you may be OK.
 
Thanks for the quick reply.
The purpose of my 22ARC "spacegun" is for coyote hunting first and range practice. I do not reload and Hornady 75gr ELD-Match and 62g ELD-VT will likely be all that I shoot. Primarily 62gr for hunting. I do have some Hornady Precision Hunter 80gr ELD-X, but in limited quantity and just out of curiosity. 62gr Hornady factory loads are my focus. So absolutely no heavy bullets like 88gr and that was the plan from the start.

So far, there are 0 problems with the rifle and a sweet shooter. I think I am being concerned over nothing based on your information, I hope.
Are the Hornady loads considered 'fast' powders?

Hornady claims at the muzzle:
22ARC 62gr ELD-VT 3300fps
22ARC 75gr ELD-Match 30075fps
22ARC 80gr ELD-X 3000fps

Thanks! (y)
 
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there is a company that makes an adjustable gas key( the part that the tube feeds into on the carrier.)
do a search
 
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here but it looks like he did yours just like any other. It appears that he left the gas block journal long, as some blocks are longer than yours. But, the gas port is in the same location regardless of how long the block or the journal is, for a given system length.

As for ideal gas system length, bbl length, cartridge and powders/loads affect what's ideal and what's not, even with an adjustable gas block. For that reason, I think you need to talk to your smith. Sounds like he steered you right since it's working well and you mention no brass or cycling issues.

I've done a total of ONE 22 ARC AR15 build for someone. IIRC, it was a 20" bbl when done and I used a std rifle length system on it. The customer mentioned a +1 and I preferred a mid length, so the std was a compromise that we were both comfortable with and worked well. There are several ways to optimize gas, aside from gas system length and I seriously doubt you'll find any accuracy from the length that you can't tune the rest of the rifle to with the many possible things you can use to tune it with.

The one thing I'll say that I agree with is that you should be able to squeeze better accuracy from it, given top shelf components etc, likely with load work. But, IME, an AR that shoots CONSISTENTLY better than the low .3's at 100 is pretty rare. There are several factors working against BR accuracy in a functioning gas gun. That said, it's not a BR rifle and low .3's ain't shabby. I'm not talking your best groups, but consistently. Big difference there. There's also this thing that many, many people fail to fully acknowledge and that's wind..even at 100 yards. So, are you shooting over flags? If not, you'll never consistently shoot below the condition value.
 
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Thank you very much for such any excellent reply. Yes, it's not like I am taking 20 or 30 rounds and averaging the groups, heck, I do not even have 40 rounds thru the rifle yet. I can certainly live with .9 groups the rest of my life, but this is a coyote hunting rig that will live mostly on a tripod. This is not a benchrest rig. .3 is way above my pay-grade and normal ability. I was shocked to see any .3 at 50 or 100 yds
I am thrilled with the initial trip to the range so far.
This is not a $3000+ money pit rifle.
I did put a JP full mass BCG in this 22ARC rifle and also a Lilja 204 Ruger .920 rifle too. Another shooter too thus far. The 22ARC upper is nothing more than an Aero Enhanced GEN2 proprietary upper. Both rifles sport a Geissele 2-stage flat-bow trigger. Bolt maker? Can't remember right now.
I did thermal fit the Lilja 204 Ruger barrel myself into the same Aero upper, but the old gunsmith said that he did NOT have a thermal fit for the 22ARC barrel he made as I sent him the Aero upper to expedite things for me. A little disappointed in the lack of a thermal fit for the 22ARC, but I should have specified that to the old fella.
I do not reload. I usually shoot at a 100yd indoor range.
A nice Zeiss scope didn't hurt my break-in shooting any
I have not had a need or desire to mess with buffer weights for tuning and would prefer not to ever do so.
Thanks for the answer and reassurance. Excellent.

 

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I built a 22 ARC with top shelf components and it shoots horribly. I've replaced, one by one, every component and it's still never shot well. Certainly, groups are two to three times larger than what you describe. I never thought about the gas tube length. I've just used pre-fits rather than spinning up a barrel. Maybe they're on to something.
 
parshal said:
I built a 22 ARC with top shelf components and it shoots horribly. I've replaced, one by one, every component and it's still never shot well. Certainly, groups are two to three times larger than what you describe. I never thought about the gas tube length. I've just used pre-fits rather than spinning up a barrel. Maybe they're on to something.
Click to expand...
Bummer to hear this about your 22ARC rig. Who was the barrel maker? What did they say? Have you taken it to a gunsmith for testing? Bore-scoped the barrel?

Yeah, I wish the grumpy old guy would have explained more about exactly what problems people were having, but I think it had more to do with cycling than any kind of accuracy problems from the gas system, but what do I know? Not much!

A Lilja barrel blank + a gunsmith to chamber the barrel etc costs some $$$. The 80 year old gunsmith was recommended by Lilja. He too is an avid coyote hunter, and has his own 22ARC as far as I remember, so maybe I got really lucky. Lilja has a specific 12 shot breakin process which is actually time consuming. The pic attached is one of the ragged 1 hole 3 shot groups that happened during the 12 shot breakin, and it was only at 50 yards and off a make-shift bag cuz I forgot my bipod in my excitement to shoot the new rifle. I thought I was missing horribly, but no. I fired a 4th shot intentionally a little low, thus the 1 shot at 7 o'clock in the photo. Hope my 0.3-0.9 groups 100yd continue when I have 300 rounds thru the rifle.
 

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It is a Proof barrel. Proof had little to say about it. I bought a new, identical barrel and rifle shot the same. I even tried bedding the barrel/upper.
 
You sunk a lot of money into it, so I would still spend a little more and go to a known professional gunsmith.
Do you have a complete parts list? I'll show you mine if I see yours! Mine are fairly decent parts, but nothing like big $$$ Proof.
 
I've consulted with a number friends who shoot gas guns competitively and build their own guns. None can figure out why it's not shooting the way it should.

I don't have the exact parts list but this is the basic list.

Diamond single stage trigger
JP carrier group
JP Silent Capture springs
Aero Precision M4E1 Upper and Lower
Seekins Adjustable Gas Block
 
Hah! My parts are quite similar. I have built/assembled 5.5ea AR15s so far. Pretty much done with the platform and have moved on to 22LR bench stuff. Shoot 1 box of pricey $$$ 22ARC, then the rest of the day is 22LR or 22WMR on my typical range day.

1) Lilja 22ARC 24" .920 bull barrel 1:8 twist
2) Aero Precision M4E1 Enhanced GEN2 upper (which is forged)
3) New Frontier lower (which is billet with exact same features as an Aero forged lower)
4) JP BCG full mass
5) Geissele Super 42 spring
6) Geissele 2-stage Flat Bow trigger
7) I usually get a Superlative Arms Gas Block; but I had the old gunsmith put on his recommended block since he was drilling the gas port; can't remember name of it) Rifle length gas system/tube steel
8) Magpul PRS GEN2 Precision adjustable stock (or is it a GEN3???)
9) Zeiss Conquest V4 6-24x50 Scope ZMOA-1 Reticle #93
10) 2ea Grendel steel mags; Duramag 5-RD and a E-Lander 6.5 Grendel 4-RD
11) Old Harris bench bipod
12) Bolt: can't remember; have to pull it out and look
13) Hogue Grip finger groove
14) BCMGUNFIGHTER Ambidextrous Charging Handle Mod 3x3 - Large Latch
15) Aero standard rifle buffer and tube
16) Warne 30mm rings

My Lilja drop-in 204 Ruger barrel for AR15 has very similar equipment and is a wicked accurate shooter too.
NOTE that I am NOT using a suppressor or any other kind of muzzle device on either rig; just a flush thread protector and Lilja's 11 degree (??) crown.
 
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Definitely similar build with the exception of the barrel. I started with the Superlative gas block and found it pretty finicky.

Crazy part about all this is that grabbed an IWI Zion 15 in 5.56 off a prize table and I've been able to run six different boxes of different manufacturers and weights both with and without a suppressor. I've not had a single malfunction. And, groups are better than the ARC.
 
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