Forming 6AI from 7x57 Norma & 6.5x57 RWS brass

B

bjld

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I tried running 7x57 Norma brass into a 6mm Ackley Imroved full length die but it crumpled the shoulder, so I've bought a 7x57 type S neck die to take it down to 6.5 before running it through the FL die.

Will this work or is there something else I should do?

I've ordered some 6.5x57 RWS brass and I hope that I should just be able to use the FL die.

Then turn the necks of the Norma and RWS brass down to 0.013" for the 0.271" chamber and fire form.

I thought I'd turn the necks towards the shoulder formed by sizing until the cases are a crush fit in the chamber since the neck shoulder junction formed by the FL die is probably shorter than unimproved cases.

It seems most people are of the opinion that Norma brass is soft and RWS brass is at least as good as Lapua.

I used Norma brass for a 22-250AI and I never had any problems with soft case heads; it held up as well as Winchester with high presure loads.

If I can form the cases it will be a good head to head comparison of Norma vs RWS.

For interest in Australia I paid $192/100 for Norma and $195/100 for RWS, but the RWS was marked down from $295/100.

Something I bet you won't see in the US: I paid $260 for 100 Norma 300 RSAUM cases because Remington brass was $270/100 and then today I saw Nosler Custom brass for $180/100.

Regards
Ben
 
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I have formed 6 Ackley cases from both RWS and Norma 7x57 brass, using dies from Skip Otto. Skip's passed on, but Butch Lambert now makes a similar set that look like this:

http://www.shadetreeea.com/caseDieSet.html

Probably someone in Oz makes something similar? Lets you neck down just about anything.

On thing to watch out for -- the rim groove on RWS 7x57 brass is very narrow. Deep enough, but narrow. The ejector in my BAT was too thick to work -- needed a new ejector. I don't know if the 6.5x57 brass is the same, but remember, a 6.5x57 has a shorter neck than a 7x57, so you're going to have to push the whole shoulder back a bit. the 6.5x57 is based on the 8x57 case, not the 7x57. The 6 Remington (aka .244 Remington) and Ackley variants) use the 7x57 case.

Wonderful brass, the RWS, not easily come by in the States anymore.
 
I believe Huntington's is importing it now. They had a list of cases on Accurate Shooter . com Bulliten Board
 
There ain't no flies on Remchester 244 or 6mm brass. Buy a bulk bag and sort it. You'll get 90 to 95% good ones.

JMHO

Ray
 
Cheechako said:
There ain't no flies on Remchester 244 or 6mm brass. Buy a bulk bag and sort it. You'll get 90 to 95% good ones.

JMHO

Ray
Click to expand...

Ray, If you want to use Remchester brass for a 6 Ackley with tight-necked chamber, I'd start with .257+P brass. Turn the necks at .25, then size down to .243. False shoulder at your finger tips, and no chance of a donut. In fact, I've done this.
 
Thanks Charles - I was thinking the same thing by neck turning before fire forming - no donut as the turned neck gets formed into the steeper improved shoulder.

Do you think a 6.5mm neck will size down to 6mm nicely in the 6mm AI full length die?

Although the 6mm Remington is derived from the 7x57mm Mauser there is a slight difference in the base to shoulder dimension (3 thou) and both have different shoulder angles.

The 6.5x57mm Mauser has the shallowest shoulder but the longest base to shoulder dimension - closer to the dimensions of the 6mm Ackley Improved case, so I thought it might be the better case to start with.

I could buy 500 Remchester cases and simply sort, turn and fireform, but then I wouldn't have to but different dies to form the brass first and I'd have no reason to buy Norma and RWS brass and find out for myself which is better. ;-)
 
bjld said:
Do you think a 6.5mm neck will size down to 6mm nicely in the 6mm AI full length die?
Click to expand...

Probably, but I've not done it. I use my case-forming dies that I mentioned.

Although the 6mm Remington is derived from the 7x57mm Mauser there is a slight difference in the base to shoulder dimension (3 thou) and both have different shoulder angles.

The 6.5x57mm Mauser has the shallowest shoulder but the longest base to shoulder dimension - closer to the dimensions of the 6mm Ackley Improved case, so I thought it might be the better case to start with.
Click to expand...

I believe my book is slightly off on the 6 Ackley Improved, but right on the others. Measuring from the case head, the body/shoulder dimension is:

6.5X57 = 1.7520
7X57 = 1.7277
.244 Rem = 1.7249

The neck/shoulder dimension is

6.5x57 = 1.941
7x57 = 1.8664
244 Rem = 1.8822

What I have for the .244 AI is
1.7249 and 1.8332

You should check your print, but that means you'd have to move the neck/shoulder junction BACK with the 6.5x57 as a parent case -- no good to turn the neck first. That's why I prefer the 7x57 case, though I'll allow I've never tried a 6.5x57.
 
Gawd, this is a lot more complicated than it was 15 years ago. I bought W-W (my buddy used R-P), turned the necks just like we do when making PPC cases, i.e. until we got a crush fit, loaded 'em and shot 'em. Out came a perfect 244 Ackley.

The only reason you may want to go through the trouble of using other brass is quality. But, sorted Remchester is just as good as any. And, it's a 244 Ackley for Christ's sake. You'll wear out the barrel long before you realize any benefit, if any, from all the time and trouble.

JMHO

Ray
 
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Ray, he lives in Australia. Apparently, from his first post, U.S. brass is more expensive there than European brass.
 
I'm going to quit whining about the price of brass here, especially since the Oz $ and US $ are nearly equal in value, poor Australians.

When I had a 7x57 I got some +P .257 brass I was going to turn into 7x57, but never got around to it before I sold the rifle. RP 7x57 brass was too heavy and/or soft, and WW was scarce as hen's teeth.
 
I bought a Howa in 243 and had it rechambered with my reamer to make a 6mm AI "fire forming rifle".

The Howa was $600 - the 6mm Krieger barrel I bought last weekend was $530, $30 more because of the 5R rifling.

$500 is the cheapest I've ever seen Kriegers for sale in Australia.

When the Howa barrel is shot out I'll rebarrel it in something else.

The fireformed 6mm AI brass and 5R Krieger barrel is for a light gun - an experiment shooting VLDs fast.

If it doesn't work I'll keep the brass for a varmint rifle.

Ben
 
bjld said:
The fireformed 6mm AI brass and 5R Krieger barrel is for a light gun - an experiment shooting VLDs fast.
Click to expand...

Should work for 1,000 yards. Bill Shehane fired a lot of 6mms with a 6/284, and the Cass brothers were fond of a 6mm/06 -- about the same capacity. As I remember, they were using the Sierra bullet, I don't know if Bill was still using the full-length 6/284 when he went to Bergers. But a 6/284 reamer held back .200 has exactly the same capacity as a 6 Ackley (yes, I've had both), with a lot less work making cases. You can get 3,400+ with Rel-22, and a little less with H4831SC (probably has an Australian equivalent).

If your VLD's blow up, try some Sierra 107s.

I shot 106-grain Clinch River bullets, not available in Australia. For two years, that 6 Ackley rifle won either group or score for every relay I was in. Then the barrel was done.
 
I spoke to CH&4D about some forming dies and they told me to try 257 Roberts and 6mm Rem FL dies before getting any forming dies made and to lubricate the cases well.

I took the expander assembly out of a 257 die and fitted a 6mm die with a floating carbide expander ball and used dry lube on the necks and case forming wax sparingly on the body.

Running the 7x57 Norma brass into the 257 then the 6mm die made a well formed case with no dents from too much wax.

The shoulder of the 6.5x57 RWS brass was pushed back nicely by the 257 die and the donut was clearly visible above the neck shoulder junction before finishing with the 6mm die.

I can feel the donut inside the neck with a piece of wire but it feeds onto the mandrel of my neck turner okay.

I think the 257 followed by the 6mm FL die is a good idea, especially for the RWS 6.5x57 brass, because the shoulder angle gets steeper in two steps as the shoulder is gradually pushed back and the neck sized down.

I ran the Norma and RWS brass into the dies a few times to examine the results and get a feel for the resizing with no problems.

Then I used a Remington 6mm case for comparison and ran it into the 6mm FL die and the neck split on the first pass so unless it's an exception I suspect the necks of the Remington brass are not annealed to be as soft as the Norma and RWS brass.

Once I've done the neck turning I'm going to work up some loads and see for myself how hard the brass is in the case heads of the different cases.

I haven't cycled the Norma or RWS brass through my fireforming rifle or my light gun yet so I don't know how the extractors will handle the extractor grooves, although the RWS brass was a tight fit in my shellholder.

Ben
 
Hi all

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life since I got questions about forming 6AI brass from 6.5x57 RWS and 7x57 Norma cases in the "Lapua 243 cases cheaper than Remington in Australia" thread.

Below is my last post:

You are correct Charles - I pushed the shoulder on the 6.5x57 back with a 257 Roberts FL die (no expander) followed by a 6mm FL die and then neck turned (I got this advice from CH&4D - cheaper than form dies).

I could not use the same shell holder for the 6.5x57 RWS cases as I could with the other makes - it was too tight a fit for a 308W shell holder so I used a 6.5x55 shell holder instead, although it was a little too loose for my liking.

All makes of case extract fine from my fire-forming rifle, a 243W Howa 1500 rechambered to 6AI, although I haven't tried them in the Rem 700 varmint rifle yet that I've only just got back from the smith (I won't fireform this cartridge with a new Krieger).

It has a Wyatt extended magazine that lets me load 87 gr VMAX bullets to a COAL of 2.9" to suit the throat of my reamer - this reamer also suits 107 gr MKs in my light gun.

The fireformed Norma and Remington cases best fit my 6AI chamber - the RWS cases are narrower across the case head and I suspect that will cause case head separation with repeated firing and sizing.

Something else: the Lapua and Remington 243W cases were the only ones in stock at the gun shop on the weekend, but I could have ordered Norma cases for less than the Remington too.

The gun shop I refer to is the South Australian Rifle Association store - it's Krieger's single biggest customer - we like our Kriegers in Oz!

They try hard to give their members good service and although the general public can buy Lapua direct from the importer the SARA store buys in sufficient volume to keep their delivery costs down.

Regards
Ben
 
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