Flat base bullets.

James M.

James M.

New member
When I started shooting short range Benchrest in 1997, almost everyone shot flat base bullets. There were exceptions like Gary Ocock, but for the most part the great shooters shot the flat base bullets since at 100/200 yards the BT did not improve the ballistic coefficient very much...if at all. Also, the shooters seemed to prefer slower twists in their barrels (14-15"). The switch to faster twist and BT bullets seemed to start about 7 or 8 years ago. Also, in this period of time several of the men who made great FB bullets have passed away. This includes Ed Watson, Skip Otto, Del Bishop, and Phil Sauer. Well enough of my ramblings. I will include a picture of several great FB bullets made on different length jackets. There are three bullets that are listed as .770. No, that is not a typo, but a bullet made by the late Del Bishop. He had some method of cutting jackets to custom lengths. George U., if you happen to be perusing this site, tell us what you think the ogive for these bullets are. We miss your input on bullet and die questions. James Mock
 

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As I am new to this game, I will ask the question that I thought that this thread would have offered. As I understand it, for the short range game, the use of lower weight projectiles is STILL the mainstay and the slower twist is so that the bullets do not fragment. Is this still true? Or is there a Non-Flat Base light weight projectile that has taken the lead? Have been told to have a 1:14 twist in 6mmBR if I want to shoot the short discipline and a 1:8 Twist if I want to shoot the heavy, say 107 Gr. Berger VLDs that require a fast turn to stabilize, if I want to shoot the long range game.

Thanks, Bob
 
James M. said:
When I started shooting short range Benchrest in 1997, almost everyone shot flat base bullets. There were exceptions like Gary Ocock, but for the most part the great shooters shot the flat base bullets since at 100/200 yards the BT did not improve the ballistic coefficient very much...if at all. Also, the shooters seemed to prefer slower twists in their barrels (14-15"). The switch to faster twist and BT bullets seemed to start about 7 or 8 years ago. Also, in this period of time several of the men who made great FB bullets have passed away. This includes Ed Watson, Skip Otto, Del Bishop, and Phil Sauer. Well enough of my ramblings. I will include a picture of several great FB bullets made on different length jackets. There are three bullets that are listed as .770. No, that is not a typo, but a bullet made by the late Del Bishop. He had some method of cutting jackets to custom lengths. George U., if you happen to be perusing this site, tell us what you think the ogive for these bullets are. We miss your input on bullet and die questions. James Mock
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James, great flat-base bullet makers are still with us. Lowell, Hottenstein, Gary Connaway Brady Knight, Bart Sauter, just to name a few. Along the nostalgic line of thinking, I'm working on going back to a 6-ogive nose, .750 jacket and 14.5 twist the same idea Jef Fowler used to get in the HOF shooting in Midland Texas where the wind NEVER blows.

Now if George Ulrich can just find that old die, I have a bucket of old J4's in 750 and a Ross Sherman die. That die may not be exact a 6 but it is a secant ogive.

Besides, I have always told myself I'm not smart enough to shoot boat-tails. Ferris Pindells best wind bullet was about 85 grains, on a 0.9 something jacket and had a "needlepoint". Ask Don Geraci about that bullet.
 
You're right Jerry; there are still great FB bullet makers. Ronnie Cheek makes a great 62 gr. bullet on the .750 jacket, and Bart's Ultra 68gr FB has a great pedigree for winning big matches. You might check on the "little uglies" with which Tom LIbby has had great success. They were first made by Don Spencer and later by Del Bishop. Tom may have the dies for them. They were a low ogive number (5 or 6) and may have been a double ogive. One thing that I know is that they were " poison" at 100 yards. Good shooting...James
 
James M. said:
You're right Jerry; there are still great FB bullet makers. Ronnie Cheek makes a great 62 gr. bullet on the .750 jacket, and Bart's Ultra 68gr FB has a great pedigree for winning big matches. You might check on the "little uglies" with which Tom LIbby has had great success. They were first made by Don Spencer and later by Del Bishop. Tom may have the dies for them. They were a low ogive number (5 or 6) and may have been a double ogive. One thing that I know is that they were " poison" at 100 yards. Good shooting...James
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I have some Ronnie Cheeks, in the camper I think?? And some of Barts Ultras he made about 5-6 years ago, anyhow we were shooting at Mickeys when I got these.

And guess what, I just came across some 62/790's made by Brady on a Ross Sherman die. The nose on that bullet looks about like 6.5 ogive if Conway's 6/9 nose bullet is a true 6. Good news there, I just talked to Brady and he still has that die!!
 
Dave Tooley said:
And now we've completed yet another lap and end up back where we started.

Dave
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It'll be more fun the second time around.

If you and Summers had found that die all mine and Georges hard labors would have ben saved.

Actually this die wasn't at Claudia's when you guys went to help her. Supposedly it had been gone some
10 years or so.
 
Actschully, how many HOF points did Tony get with the old stuff and how many has he won lately?

Actschully= a word my spell checker doesn't like at all!!
 
here's a question for the guys that have been around a while.

when did cut rifled barrels come on the scene?? i haven't been around for that long and the popular barrel makers are basically the same as when i started.
 
afrench said:
here's a question for the guys that have been around a while.

when did cut rifled barrels come on the scene?? i haven't been around for that long and the popular barrel makers are basically the same as when i started.
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Hey to Lubbock, again not a smart a$$ answer but cut rifle barrels were the first ones made with the advent of "rifled" barrels in the muzzle loader days. Historically, I would guess buttoned barrels are very new since the buttons are made of tungsten carbide and we have only had that material since about 1955 or so when General Electric started marketing the Carboloy tool material.

My next door neighbor had an old rifle cutting machine his granddad used in the late 1800's when he was a gun maker in Claiborne County Tennessee. The guide with the twist in it is made of wood and he had his granddads old lathe used to drill a barrel. That old lathe was made of wood with a big wooden flywheel, a drive belt, and a pedal setup like a sewing machine. Unfortunately he died about 10 years ago and I guess his sons burned the stuff.
 
JerrySharrett said:
Hey to Lubbock, again not a smart a$$ answer but cut rifle barrels were the first ones made with the advent of "rifled" barrels in the muzzle loader days. Historically, I would guess buttoned barrels are very new since the buttons are made of tungsten carbide and we have only had that material since about 1955 or so when General Electric started marketing the Carboloy tool material.

My next door neighbor had an old rifle cutting machine his granddad used in the late 1800's when he was a gun maker in Claiborne County Tennessee. The guide with the twist in it is made of wood and he had his granddads old lathe used to drill a barrel. That old lathe was made of wood with a big wooden flywheel, a drive belt, and a pedal setup like a sewing machine. Unfortunately he died about 10 years ago and I guess his sons burned the stuff.
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Thanks, Jerry.

what i meant by 'on the scene' was, when did the major, short range BR matches seem to change favor from button to cut rifled?

or, when did this:
2004 Nats at Kelbly's


and this:
2005 nats at Fairchance


change to this:
2013 nbrsa nats


with my limited experience, i'm guessing that boattail bullets probably had something to do with the change. or, vise versa. chicken or the egg??

i'm with you, i don't feel like i'm on top of my game enough to use BTs at this point. just one more variable that i don't need right now.
 
rkittine said:
100-200-300 Yards

Bob
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You mentioned a 6mmBR. A 6PPC would be a better choice at these yardages - on average.

Added after re-reading your post - A 6PPC, 14 or so twist give or take an inch, shooting 62 to 68 grain bullets. Go past 300 yards and this is not the better recommendation.
 
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OK, I'm a little confused here - nothing new! What is so different about boat tails that two folks (Jerry and afrench) say they're not "smart" enough or on their game enough to use them? I'm shooting BTs and love them. What's so different/better/easier about the FBs?

I shoot VFS at my club (Austin Rifle Club) and while I'm giving up a lot to the 30s with my 6BR, I can hold my own and am improving with my wind reading skills. If I can get them up to a consistently high level, I think I can win a tad more frequently with my 6.

So please help me understand this! Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!!

Dennis
 
DeltaBravo said:
OK, I'm a little confused here - nothing new! What is so different about boat tails that two folks (Jerry and afrench) say they're not "smart" enough or on their game enough to use them? I'm shooting BTs and love them. What's so different/better/easier about the FBs?

I shoot VFS at my club (Austin Rifle Club) and while I'm giving up a lot to the 30s with my 6BR, I can hold my own and am improving with my wind reading skills. If I can get them up to a consistently high level, I think I can win a tad more frequently with my 6.

So please help me understand this! Thanks and Happy Holidays!!!!

Dennis
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Dennis, what is so different is you are shooting VFS at the club level. That is a whole different set of accuracy requirements than shooting the SUper Shoot, IBS Nationals, NBRSA Nationals. etc.

And Merry Christmas to you (I don't do this happy holidays crap)!!!!!
 
Jerry,

Merry Christmas to you too! Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't really answer my question. I understand that my accuracy needs are quite a bit less for what I'm doing, but why would FBs be better? Are they easier to tune, or shoot, or do they fight the wind better? That's what I'm confused about. I'm shooting Hottenstein 68 BTs and will be switching to Barts 68 BTs this week (ran out of the Hottensteins), and Bart has won a few matches with his new 65 BT so you can understand my confusion, I hope!

Dennis
 
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