First time at 1,000 yards ...

L

Larry Willis

Guest
I'm about to start informal shooting at 1,000 yards for the first time. I have been shooting at 600 yards with great results. However, I'll be using a half MOA tactical rifle in .308 Win.

I know this is a LONG stretch for this caliber, and I wanted to hear from shooters that have tried pushing the envelope with the .308 Win.
To make it worse my barrel is only 22" long, so velocity is going to be very low for shooting so far beyond 600 yards.

I'm aware that heavier bullets have a higher BC, and I've heard several top shooters make good arguements for using 155 gr. SMK, 168 gr. SMK and the 175 gr. SMK. My barrel is Kreiger with an 11" twist, and it shoots all of these bullets well.

If you've got actual experience shooting 1,000 yards, which bullet would you start off with . . . . and why? (or) what other bullet would you recommend.

- Innovative
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Long stretch for the caliber? Hardly. The prone shooting community has decades of experience shooting .308s at 1000 yards.

Bullet choices: 155 Sierra (2156), 175 Sierra, and 190 Sierra. Why?
  • The 2156 has a reasonably high BC and can be pushed faster than the other two. Fast enough for velocity to compensate for the lower BC.
  • The 175 is a good balance between BC and velocity. You can reach ~2600 to 2650, which is (usually) enough to keep the projectile supersonic @1000. Evwn subsonic, it is still fairly accurate. A US Army sniper recorded kills at 1250 yards using an M24 rifle. (24" to 26" long barrel though.)
  • The 190 makes up for the lack of speed with a high BC (~.520 or so). Push it at 2525 to 2550 FPS, and it will remain supersonic @ 1000. The 190 @2525 FPS was a favorite load for 1000 yard prone shooting - at least, until about a decade ago when the 2155 (Sierra's other 155 grain bullet) appeared.
Other choices:
  • 155.5 Berger. All reports say it's a near-twin to Sierra's #2156, at least in terms of exterior ballistics.
  • 175 Berger. Higher BC than Sierra's 175. I'm speaking of the VLD design, so it may be a bit fussier to tune. Am not sure if Berger now makes a non-VLD design.
  • 185 and 190 grain Berger. The ones I used were the VLD design, and they're pretty good. Again, am not sure if Berger now makes non-VLD versions.
Hope this helps.
 
Asa Yam .......

Most of those prone shooters are shooting a 30" barrel, not a 22" barrel like my tactical rifle. That's a big difference in velocity. To make it worse, my particular rifle doesn't like the higher BC Berger VLDs as well as the SMK bullets. I was thinking the 168 gr SMK would be a good balance between BC and velocity. What do you think?

- Innovative
 
Larry Willis said:
Most of those prone shooters are shooting a 30" barrel, not a 22" barrel like my tactical rifle. That's a big difference in velocity.
Click to expand...
Larry,

Thinks again. Prior to 1995, few 1000 yard barrels exceeded 25" in length - the 190 load was a particular favorite if you could get away with using it. M14 service rifle barrels were (and still are) restricted to 22" by competition rules. Today's M110 (SR-25 derivative) barrel is 20" long. Take a guess as to which bullets the US Army uses in the latter for target work - the answer might surprise you.

I was thinking the 168 gr SMK would be a good balance between BC and velocity. What do you think?
Click to expand...
BAD IDEA.
There's an old saying in highpower shooting. "Friends don't let friends use 168s (Sierras) at 1000 yards." The 168 Sierra (and the post-1980 180s) are dynamically unstable in flight, and go unstable around Mach 1. We're talking about bullets flying through targets at large yaw angles, (90+ degrees to the line of flight), and highly erratic ballistics. Oh, you can make a 168 Sierra work at 1000 yards - if you can fire it at an MV of 2700+ FPS. There's a notorious load known as "G4" or "G8" that was a long time 1000 yard load using the 168 Sierra. The secret behind this load? 44+ grains of IMR-4895 in a Lake City casing. :eek:
 
1000/308

Asa is right on the money 168 SMK are not a good choice for 1000. I shoot Palma with 30/34 inch barrels and have a couple of shorter barreled tactical rifles Sierra 175 SMK are a good choice.
 
ASA gave you some very good info.

Friend of mine has an 11 twist 22" barrel on one of his 308's and two loads do very well. 155 Scenar at 2825 fps, and the 190Mk at 2525 fps. Both loads shoot very well to 1k.
 
Thanks to all for the info. My particular rifle doesn't shoot as well with 190 gr bullets. I've had great accuracy with the 175 (with and without moly) at 600 yards. I figured the 175s were going to be hard to beat. However, with bullets in short supply, I recently tried 168s and got some of the best groups ever at 600 yards.

1,000 yards is a whole new game for me, and unfortunately there's only one place (3 ours away) where I can shoot that far. How many shooters are using Moly at 1,000 yards? What size 5 shot groups would you expect from my short barrel 308 at 1,000 yards?

- Innovative
 
Larry Willis said:
Thanks to all for the info. My particular rifle doesn't shoot as well with 190 gr bullets. I've had great accuracy with the 175 (with and without moly) at 600 yards. I figured the 175s were going to be hard to beat. However, with bullets in short supply, I recently tried 168s and got some of the best groups ever at 600 yards.

1,000 yards is a whole new game for me, and unfortunately there's only one place (3 ours away) where I can shoot that far. How many shooters are using Moly at 1,000 yards? What size 5 shot groups would you expect from my short barrel 308 at 1,000 yards?

- Innovative
Click to expand...

My experience, I found out the hard way the 168's did not stay stable and keyholed, I think you will probably find the same thing will happen to you, I would stick with the 155's or the 175's. Good luck with the .308, you will have fun! Ron Tilley
 
The current US Military long range sniper/match/combat cartridge (M118 LR) is loaded with the 175 grain SMK. It didn't happen by accident but was developed the hard way - as the result of failures with the 168 grain.

I used to shoot the 175 grain Berger VLD out of my 308 at 1000 yards and it worked great. But not as great as other cartridges, which is why I don't shoot the 308 at 1000 yards anymore.:rolleyes:

Ray
 
Now for the hard part . . . . finding the bullets. I've had 1,000 of the 175 SMKs on order for over 6 months, and every month the ETA gets pushed back another month.

- Innovative
 
Larry

I often see pulled-down 175 grain bullets on Gun Broker at reasonable prices. You might consider buying a few hundred that way.

Only two problems. Both related to the seller. You have to trust that they are really US military pulled from the m118 cartridges and that they won't be all scarred up with pull marks.

Maybe if you can find a seller who would let you buy a hundred or so you could at least try them before buying a bunch.

Ray
 
Cheechako said:
The current US Military long range sniper/match/combat cartridge (M118 LR) is loaded with the 175 grain SMK. It didn't happen by accident but was developed the hard way - as the result of failures with the 168 grain.
Click to expand...
Ray,

That's not the bullet the US Army is using in competition. And M118LR was developed from M118 (173 grain FMJBT target and sniper load), not from M852 (168 grain Sierra match load).

Any other guesses on what the Army's using?
 
Last edited:
Asa

I think I know the answer but first, I'll have to disagree with you about your history of the M118LR.

The M118LR did indeed derive from the failure of the M852. The original M118 was replaced by the M852 with the 168 SMK in 1982. But it didn't take long to realize that the 168 didn't cut it at 1000 yards so it was replaced in 1995 by the M118LR with the 175 grain SMK. Since the M118LR was intended as a multi-use cartridge it no longer bears the "Match" headstamp.

The original M118 was re-dressed in combat clothes in 1982 and was renamed the M118SB. It was discontinued in the 1990s. The M852 was discontinued in 1996 leaving the M118LR as the sole "official" match cartridge.

Much of the confusion results from the Army's continuing use of the "M118" designation for cartridges only distantly related to the orginal M118 Match.

As to what the Army is now using in competition - I assume you are talking about the various 7.62x51 AMU cartridges loaded with differing bullet weights depending on the particular discipline. In addition, the various NSWC-Crane rifle ammunition contracts call for the 175 grain SMK, but I think you are actually referring to the new 300 Win Mag. Mk 248 Mod 1 with the 220 grain SMK?

Or maybe our 21st Century Army is still using the 20th Century Mk 248 Mod 0 with the 190 grain SMK.?

Ray
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BTW

In 1980 the Army tested 4 bullets before deciding on the 168 SMK for the M852. They also tested Hornady, Nosler and Lapua. Given the failure of the SMK one has to wonder what may have been had one of the others been selected, and exactly how bad were they compared with the SMK.

The cartridge during those bullet tests was known as the M118SP, yet another use of the M118.

Ray
 
The only advantage I've found using Moly coated bullets is more shooting in-between cleanings, and a slight decrease in pressure allowing a tad more powder.

  1. What do you 1,000 yard shooters think about using Moly?
  2. So far . . . . I prefer Varget. What would you recommend? [Keep in mind my 308 Win with short barrel.]
- Innovative
 
Larry

JMHO, but I quit using moly bullets several years ago because I honestly could not tell any difference in accuracy, cleaning, velocity, etc. The only time I use them now is if they are the only bullets I can get.

I always hesitate to give my loads but I will tell you that Varget is one of the best for the 308 with heavy bullets at 1000 yards. It was the only powder I used. On another Forum just recently a shooter asked the same question and the responses were about 95% in favor of Varget. You'd have to do your own testing to see exactly how much you can use in your rifle but I'd bet you'll end up around 45 grains with 175 grain bullets.

Ray
 
Do any of you have any experience in using a 155gr Berger VLD hunting in a 26inch barreled .308 at this distance? This is also a hunting rifle albeit a Kreiger barreled, trued up 700.

Thanks,

Jamie
 
I've seen absolutely no accuracy benefit from moly. However, my borescope shows a real noticeable increase in the number of shots that can be fired between cleanings. The lower pressure (with moly) seems to allow enough powder to increase velocity at safe pressure.

I'm now finishing off an 8 pound keg of Varget that burns way too fast. This is an unusually HOT lot of Varget, and safe pressure is limiting the amount of powder I can use. As if my short 22" .308 barrel wasn't enough of a problem (at 1,000 yards), velocity average is 120 FPS less than before. My particular rifle doesn't allow more than 43.0 grains, and that's a true MAXIMUM load.

Velocity with an older lot of Varget had no trouble getting my 175 SMK to average 2730 fps with 44.5 gr. When I tried IMR4064 my velocity was even better.

- Innovative
 
Cheechako said:
Asa

I think I know the answer
...
As to what the Army is now using in competition - I assume you are talking about the various 7.62x51 AMU cartridges loaded with differing bullet weights depending on the particular discipline. In addition, the various NSWC-Crane rifle ammunition contracts call for the 175 grain SMK, but I think you are actually referring to the new 300 Win Mag. Mk 248 Mod 1 with the 220 grain SMK?

Or maybe our 21st Century Army is still using the 20th Century Mk 248 Mod 0 with the 190 grain SMK.?
Click to expand...
Ray,

Guess again. :) One of the recent posters got pretty close.
 
Asa

C'mon. Don't keep us guessing. The Navy uses the 190 and 220 grain SMK but I don't know what the Army uses other than the M118LR. AMU has loaded 167, 168, 170, 180, 197, and 200. What else is there? 155?:confused:

And, we ARE talking 30 caliber, right?

Ray
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top