fireforming barrel?

TrxR

New member
Debating on getting a fireforming barrel done for my 30br. I have my own reamer . I was wondering I could use any wore out 30cal barrel? does barrel length matter? Can I have it on a dedicated action like a rem or savage? My main action is a Borden BRM.

Now the other question is brass prep? Do I trim them to 1.5 before fireforming? Also do I turn before or after? My chamber is 1.510 length and a .331nk

Also what powders could be used and how much? I would hate to use H4198 as I've been trying to find some for ages and it is scarce.

Thanks
 
I have a dedicated 30BR fireforming barrel. It is a worn out 223 barrel. I do not use bullets to fireform.
Headed to the Shilen Swap Meet and will entertain your questions on Sunday.
Barrel length or receiver doesn't matter.
 
I have a dedicated 30BR fireforming barrel. It is a worn out 223 barrel. I do not use bullets to fireform.
Headed to the Shilen Swap Meet and will entertain your questions on Sunday.
Barrel length or receiver doesn't matter.

Any info on your procedure for fireforming 30br brass would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Any info on your procedure for fireforming 30br brass would be appreciated.

Thanks
If necessary I trim to a couple thousands shorter than my reamer OA dimension, a healthy dose of Bullseye and a wax or playdough plug and form. No doughnut. You can now expand and turn. It takes so very little to expand now. After turning I neck size only and start shooting. Yes, check your OA length first as my brass grows a small amount in length. I do have a custom neck bushing full length die based on my reamer. It is tighter by .003 at the base and .002 at the shoulder.
 
If necessary I trim to a couple thousands shorter than my reamer OA dimension, a healthy dose of Bullseye and a wax or playdough plug and form. No doughnut. You can now expand and turn. It takes so very little to expand now. After turning I neck size only and start shooting. Yes, check your OA length first as my brass grows a small amount in length. I do have a custom neck bushing full length die based on my reamer. It is tighter by .003 at the base and .002 at the shoulder.

Thanks my reamer is a 1.510 overall length. Would trimming to 1.500 be too much? I believe 6br cases are 1.560 factory. How much bullseye do you use?

Thanks
 
FWIW, I just finished fire forming fifty 30BR cases with no bullet. -Al

QKYM3Bml.jpg


cf6Z6sYl.jpg


yhORXStl.jpg


mmwN8KIl.jpg
 
Al, your Cream of Wheat looks a might white to be cream of wheat... And the play-dough... is that just to hold it all together? Was your result close to a case fired in the same chamber?

TIA,

GsT
 
FWIW, I just finished fire forming fifty 30BR cases with no bullet. -Al

QKYM3Bml.jpg


cf6Z6sYl.jpg


yhORXStl.jpg


mmwN8KIl.jpg

What powder do you use for fireforming?

What length is your chamber and what length do you trim to before fireforming?

Do you turn after or before?

Also do you use a dedicated barrel and action? if so what caliber barrel?

Thanks
 
LOL!!

I'm always noticing sequences so.....

-pic#1 they're all full of powder and COW
-pic#2 ya' got's the playdo in but 5 unprimed.....
-pic#3 all bagged up and ready to transport to the ch'ooting place (W/5 missing)
-pic#4 pile


No, you don't have to 'splain it just makes me laff at me...


dogs are so easy to amuse
my dog just spent 7 minutes catching his own tail
oh


hey



I just spent 7 minutes watching him!
 
What powder do you use for fireforming?

What length is your chamber and what length do you trim to before fireforming?

Do you turn after or before?

Also do you use a dedicated barrel and action? if so what caliber barrel?

Thanks

Ok, here's the run down. There are other very effective methods of fire forming the Lapua 6BR case to 30 BR prior to neck turning....Butch and Jackie both have outlined their methods and each has it's own nuances.

What I wanted was a method for those using what I'll call a 'standard' 30BR chamber or what has generally (albeit incorrectly) come to be known as the 30BR 'Robinett' chamber. That chamber is exactly what my current 30BR barrels are and always have been.

This means a chamber of these general parameters and is what's out there on probably 95% of the 30BR Benchrest rifles:
-Chamber length of 1.510-1.530
-Chamber neck diameter of .330-.332

It had to work without having a dedicated fire forming barrel, use no bullets, and be able to use virgin out-of-the-box Lapua 6BR cases with no work prior to fire forming. The final requirement was that the fire formed cases neck length neither shortened or lengthened excessively. In other words, the fire formed case would come out of the chamber with the necks straight, the neck lengths in the ball park for the chambers neck length and the cases be virtually ready to turn w/o the additional step of turning off the external lump that occurs when a 6BR is mechanically expanded to .30. Obviously, it also has to easy on the barrel and not have the potential for any issues there.

The one requirement I'd stress is to know your chamber length before doing this. This is important even if you don't use this method, obviously. Don't think, don't guess....know what it is. The best way is with a chamber length plug. You can buy a .30 cal chamber length gauge from Sinclair for a few bucks. The neck O.D. on it will have to be reduced to fit the chamber neck diameter...my suggestion is the keep the O.D. of the neck gauge .002 under the neck diameter of the chamber (ie: .328 in a .330 neck chamber). These are relatively soft leaded steel so if you don't have a lathe, they can be reduced by chucking in a drill and using some 220 on it while it's spinning. You can also make one from brass or aluminum round. Bottom line is to know your chamber length.

So here's what works and how I did the 50 cases pictured above:

-Winchester 231 pistol powder (20.0 grs)

-WSR small rifle primers

-Tissue paper packed tightly on top of the powder to the middle of the neck length. And I mean tightly packed. I used a wooden chop stick to pack it in. Thanks, Hu Hot! ;)

-Play Doh packed on top of the tissue paper to the top of the neck.

-Unless you're going to fire them right away, put your block in a big zip lock bag as the Play Doh dries out pretty quickly.

At this point, just fire them in the gun. You might see bits of tissue paper out the end of the barrel, which is a good thing...you know the powder has burned completely. The case necks will be .001 under chamber neck diameter and the case length will be in the 1.512-1.515 range as measured with the primer removed. This pic....literally hot from the chamber... shows 1.517 (the fired primer adds a .002-.003 of length). At this point, you're ready to trim the case length to what you want them to be (because you know the chamber length, right? ;) ) and turn the necks using whatever method you use.

ukpnvfFl.jpg


A couple of notes:

-The external lump area, while visible, is not measureable.

-The internal donut (at the base of the new neck/shoulder junction) is still in there. It's longer than when cases are mechanically expanded and also not as thick. My belief is that the external lump/internal donut material is displaced longitudinally (along the length of the neck) as it's blown out. I removed the internal donut prior to neck turning.

-Other powders could also work. I used 231 because I've got a bunch of it and because it's right next to Bullseye on the burn rate charts.

-More than 20 grs of 231 didn't form my test cases any better than 20.0 gr. At 30.0 grs., the necks actually started to lengthen and there was a pinched down area at the end of the necks as the necks went into the 'free bore/leade' area.

-16.0 gr. didn't form them enough.

-Other primers would likely work. I used the WSR's because I have thousands of them and it's what I started my test cases with.

-I used Play Doh because I had it and use it to plug holes in receivers when doing bedding. Wax and clay would probably work, too. It does need something on top of the tissue paper, though.

-Packing the tissue paper in tightly and sealing the neck with Play Doh, wax, etc. gives the powder just enough extra "....dwell time" (Randy Robinett's term) to pressure up and form nicely.

After firing 5 test cases, I put a dry patch down the barrel and it came out with a bit of black powder residue. The next dry patch came out as white as a new package of Grandpa's Fruit Of The Looms. After firing the remaining 45 cases, three patches wet with Butch's removed all powder residue. The next dry patches were as white as.....;)

They neck turned beautifully with a concentric blend into the shoulder.

Nothing written in stone but this way works.

My 2 cents worth over a morning cup of Sulawesi.

Good shootin' :)-Al
 
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Ok, here's the run down. There are other very effective methods of fire forming the Lapua 6BR case to 30 BR prior to neck turning....Butch and Jackie both have outlined their methods and each has it's own nuances.

What I wanted was a method for those using what I'll call a 'standard' 30BR chamber or what has generally (albeit incorrectly) come to be known as the 30BR 'Robinett' chamber. That chamber is exactly what my current 30BR barrels are and always have been.

This means a chamber of these general parameters and is what's out there on probably 95% of the 30BR Benchrest rifles:
-Chamber length of 1.510-1.530
-Chamber neck diameter of .330-.332

It had to work without having a dedicated fire forming barrel, use no bullets, and be able to use virgin out-of-the-box Lapua 6BR cases with no work prior to fire forming. The final requirement was that the fire formed cases neck length neither shortened or lengthened excessively. In other words, the fire formed case would come out of the chamber with the necks straight, the neck lengths in the ball park for the chambers neck length and the cases be virtually ready to turn w/o the additional step of turning off the external lump that occurs when a 6BR is mechanically expanded to .30. Obviously, it also has to easy on the barrel and not have the potential for any issues there.

The one requirement I'd stress is to know your chamber length before doing this. This is important even if you don't use this method, obviously. Don't think, don't guess....know what it is. The best way is with a chamber length plug. You can buy a .30 cal chamber length gauge from Sinclair for a few bucks. The neck O.D. on it will have to be reduced to fit the chamber neck diameter...my suggestion is the keep the O.D. of the neck gauge .002 under the neck diameter of the chamber (ie: .328 in a .330 neck chamber). These are relatively soft leaded steel so if you don't have a lathe, they can be reduced by chucking in a drill and using some 220 on it while it's spinning. You can also make one from brass or aluminum round. Bottom line is to know your chamber length.

So here's what works and how I did the 50 cases pictured above:

-Winchester 231 pistol powder (20.0 grs)

-WSR small rifle primers

-Tissue paper packed tightly on top of the powder to the middle of the neck length. And I mean tightly packed. I used a wooden chop stick to pack it in. Thanks, Hu Hot! ;)

-Play Doh packed on top of the tissue paper to the top of the neck.

-Unless you're going to fire them right away, put your block in a big zip lock bag as the Play Doh dries out pretty quickly.

At this point, just fire them in the gun. You might see bits of tissue paper out the end of the barrel, which is a good thing...you know the powder has burned completely. The case necks will be .001 under chamber neck diameter and the case length will be in the 1.512-1.515 range as measured with the primer removed. This pic....literally hot from the chamber... shows 1.517 (the fired primer adds a .002-.003 of length). At this point, you're ready to trim the case length to what you want them to be (because you know the chamber length, right? ;) ) and turn the necks using whatever method you use.

ukpnvfFl.jpg


A couple of notes:

-The external lump area, while visible, is not measureable.

-The internal donut (at the base of the new neck/shoulder junction) is still in there. It's longer than when cases are mechanically expanded and also not as thick. My belief is that the external lump/internal donut material is displaced longitudinally (along the length of the neck) as it's blown out. I removed the internal donut prior to neck turning.

-Other powders could also work. I used 231 because I've got a bunch of it and because it's right next to Bullseye on the burn rate charts.

-More than 20 grs of 231 didn't form my test cases any better than 20.0 gr. At 30.0 grs., the necks actually started to lengthen and there was a pinched down area at the end of the necks as the necks went into the 'free bore/leade' area.

-16.0 gr. didn't form them enough.

-Other primers would likely work. I used the WSR's because I have thousands of them and it's what I started my test cases with.

-I used Play Doh because I had it and use it to plug holes in receivers when doing bedding. Wax and clay would probably work, too. It does need something on top of the tissue paper, though.

-Packing the tissue paper in tightly and sealing the neck with Play Doh, wax, etc. gives the powder just enough extra "....dwell time" (Randy Robinett's term) to pressure up and form nicely.

After firing 5 test cases, I put a dry patch down the barrel and it came out with a bit of black powder residue. The next dry patch came out as white as a new package of Grandpa's Fruit Of The Looms. After firing the remaining 45 cases, three patches wet with Butch's removed all powder residue. The next dry patches were as white as.....;)

They neck turned beautifully with a concentric blend into the shoulder.

Nothing written in stone but this way works.

My 2 cents worth over a morning cup of Sulawesi.

Good shootin' :)-Al

Thanks

I'll get a chamber plug to measure. It's supposed to be 1.510 according to the reamer print and a .331 nk.

The one thing I'm confused about is 6br brass is I believe 1.560 in length do I trim this down to below the 1.510(if that's what it measures out to be) before fireforming? Or does firing full length 6br brass not cause an issue? Would the longer brass not be reaching into the rifling?
 
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The one thing I'm confused about is 6br brass is I believe 1.560 in length do I trim this down to below the 1.510(if that's what it measures out to be) before fireforming? Or does firing full length 6br brass not cause an issue?

No...you leave it full length in this method. As I posted, one of the things I wanted was to be able to use virgin Lapua 6BR brass right from the box.

Would the longer brass not be reaching into the rifling?

Yes it does. But that doesn't matter. The necks shorten as they expand during firing and will end up just a bit shorter than the chambers neck length. Again, know your chamber length.

Hope this helps. -Al
 
No...you leave it full length in this method. As I posted, one of the things I wanted was to be able to use virgin Lapua 6BR brass right from the box.



Yes it does. But that doesn't matter. The necks shorten as they expand during firing and will end up just a bit shorter than the chambers neck length. Again, know your chamber length.

Hope this helps. -Al

Thanks I was just concerned about the fireformed brass coming out longer than the chamber and if it could cause a tapered neck.
 
Had a thought on a quick and dirty chamber length checker for the 30BR cases so did one up like this:

Expanded the neck on a 6BR case with a 7mm mandrel....the expanded length being about .075 in length (to avoid making the external lump). Then, chucked a 19/64" (.296) drill bit upside down in my drill press, lubed the shank up and pushed it down into the well chamfered and lubed neck to same level as the 7mm mandrel went to. This ended up with a case neck O.D. of .322. Backed the case off the shank of the drill bit using my hand held case holder for neck turning and started trimming the case neck length back until the bolt just closed (firing pin removed for better feel). When it got to 1.525, the bolt closed. My 'real' case length gauge also shows this exact measurement.

Total H.D.C. stuff (Hillbilly Dirt Clod) :D but it worked.

If you don't have a 7mm mandrel to expand over, I'm sure you could do the same thing with a succession of drill bits as they all have a bit of taper on the end of the shanks.

Once you know your chamber length for sure, you can go from there. If it is less that the 1.512-1.517 that this method gives you for a f-formed case, simply trim the neck length on a virgin 6BR case so you'll be under that figure.

Took me longer to type this than to do it! ;) -Al
 
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Al, your Cream of Wheat looks a might white to be cream of wheat...GsT

Gene, it's not Cream Of Wheat...it's tissue paper. I've used COW and pistol powder to f-form 17 Javelina cases some years ago. But like my pal Mike Kihne said: "I got tired of cleaning breakfast cereal out of my barrel." :eek:

I'm more of a Chocolate Malt-O-Meal type of guy. ;) -Al
 
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After turning, the necks got a little 'draw back' (thanks you, George Ulrich ;)), a good internal scrubbing in hot water and Dawn, a dunk in acetone, a pass through the full length bushing sizer and are ready to go. Deburring the flash holes, chamfering the inside of the case head and touching up the primer pockets will happen after they've been whapped a couple times.

Good shootin' -Al

zTQ70mCl.jpg
 
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