Fire form question

S

swd

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I have a new wildcat I designed and built on a 243 case. The shoulder is moved forward
.040" and blown out to 30deg. Basicly a 6BR shoulder on a 243 with a .200" long neck. To fire form I removed the ejector and jammed the bullets hard into the lands {about .050" jam} with .003" neck tension. The performance is outstanding after forming with 115DTACs seated to the base of the shoulder but today I had a full case head seperation and 4 partial seperations out of forty rounds with the first loading on formed cases. So the question is do I need more neck tension to hold the cases against the bolt face when fire forming or am I just asking too much change from a 243 case, or ??? Any sugestions are appreciated. Thanks.
 
One of the first things I do before fire forming new brass is to make sure my cases are externally lubed with either a light oil or case sizing lube.

This is done so that the case does not adhere to the chamber wall when the round is fired. The reason: to prevent the case head area from stretching.

By lubing the case from top to bottom you ensure that the case slides back toward the bolt face and does not adhere to the chamber wall. If it doesn't stick to the chamber wall it won't stretch in the case head area.

If it stuck to the chamber wall, brass in the bottom portion of the case would stretch to fill in the gap between the bolt face and the base of the case, and as a result, weaken the case head area. :)
 
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Although beyond my experience, several credible posters have written that neck tension on a bullet cannot reliably act as a substitute for a false shoulder. I believe that what you need to do is to expand necks to .257 and then form a false shoulder that you can easily feel when closing the bolt on an empty case. In this case, I am just passing something along, from accounts that seemed to be well reasoned and which were based on experience.
 
I'm one of the posters Boyd mentioned -- hopefully one of the creditable ones.

What those of us who advocate a false shoulder are saying is that if the case doesn't move forward in the chamber, two good things happen. The first is you stop the kind of case separations like you experienced. The second is the dimensions of the entire set of cases are more consistent, and given close-fitting dies, will give a longer life. Some of us even claim a slight improvement in accuracy, at the benchrest level, which can be slight indeed.

Your specific problem is the first, and you may not care about the second, which in any case has only anecdotal proof.

Jamming the bullet is suppose to keep the case from moving forward in he chamber. Try this test: load one more case as you did the first batch. Fire it. How does the primer look? Usually, they look flattened beyond what you would expect from the pressure you're running in a FF load. When headspace is large, I've seen some that reminded me of a solder splatter, like when you tin the iron & shake off excess.

If the primers look that way, you have your evidence the case is moving forward in the chamber. You could risk one more case by increasing the bullet tension to whatever you can muster. My guess is you will still see evidence of case movement on the primer.

But if not, you are almost there. Section the case to make sure there is no thinning just above the web. I suppose I'd do about five more -- including sectioning, since case wall thinning was the original problem -- to make sure the first one wasn't a "false positive." If everything's OK, you're home free.

By all means include lubing the case, unless you're interested in comparing lubed versus unlubed cases in fireforming. If you use water-soluble case lube, cleanup is easy, but cleanup isn't too bad if you use something like Kroil or WD-40.

It is possible that with a lubed case, even though it does move forward in the chamber, the stretching is more even, and you will get fewer separations. That may be enough for you. But the false shoulder isn't that much more work, and should solve the problem completely.

Edit:

As a sometimes fan of big 6mms, and one who has wildcatted a few, such as a 6/284 with the reamer held in .200, I can add that barrel life is not great on these. Sometimes as little as 800 rounds for benchrest performance, maybe as little as 2000 for highpower.

This, amongst other reasons, leads me to not fireform with a bullet. Close to ten percent of your barrel life just to form cases offends the cheapskate in me. If you don't use a bullet, the false shoulder makes the whole procedure much simpler. Fireforming with a wax plug and pistol powder puts far less heat in the barrel. Can't say how many rounds it takes off barrel life, but surely not as much as 40+ grains of a slow-burning powder.

Alternatively, if you do your own work or can get a chambering job done cheaply, get a dedicated fireforming barrel. Let it's throat burn out.
 
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Thanks for all the help. I have a .257 expander, so that seems to be the obvious solution. Has anyone tried sizing wax for fire form lube? I have seperate barrel for case forming, so wear on my main barrel is not a problem, I also do all my own work. I built the gun for tactical match shooting and F class in Sacramento where wind is always an issue. So far it's shooting 115s around 3200fps in the mid .2"s. 1500-2000 rounds of barrel life is all I'm hoping for, and if I decide I really like this cartridge I'll consider Mellonite for the next barrel. Thanks again!
 
Imperial sizing die wax will work. I have used it a couple of "aw sh**" times when I forgot to bring the water soluable case lube I use for sizing. The wax wipes off easily. Unfortunately, there is a petroleum component that doesn't. Alcohol will eventually get it out. The kind of lube used for fireforming isn't critical. I've also used WD-40, which would probably fail as a sizing lube.

Moving on, I made reference to a 6/284 run in .200 short. Turned out it was exactly the same capacity as a 6 Ackley, which is a lot easier to make cases for, so I went to that. I could get 3,400 fps with 105 using Rel-22, but 3,250 with 4831SC was more accurate. This with a fresh barrel. Somewhere around the 500 round count, I chronographed it again. Oops. The 4831 load was down to a bit over 3,100 fps.

You can make a case for setting the barrel back every 250 rounds or so. Or even better, since you do your own chambering, do your own testing to determine when to set it back. I imagine, but do not know, that keeping the throat fresh may actually slow erosion. If setting the barrel back one thread keeps the velocity up, you'd have more effective life from the barrel.

I don't know if Joel Kendrick has tested Mellonite with the big stuff. When I last saw him, he shot a 1.75 inch long 6mm based on the .308 case. He tried the then-new Lapua 6.5x47 brass, but found making his cases from reforming .308 brass worked better -- though a lot more work. I also don't know if the Mellonite treatment would mean don't set the barrel back. Probably.

Good luck
 
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Fwiw........

When I FF I start with a .5 load, then .75 load and finally a full load. Yes, I lube the case well in each step and seat the bullet long to insure boltface contact. This incremental expansion does not shock the brass all at one time and it forms "better" IMO........ Your mileage may differ, but it works for me.......... Jan
 
Well, yes, my mileage varies, but that's not important.

What's important is for you to tell us if you use this technique only to blow out a case such as an Ackley Improved or 6PPC, where a portion of the shoulder of the "virgin" case still provides headspace, or if you use it even when you're blowing a shoulder quite a bit forward, as with a Dasher or the case mentioned in this thread. The reason the poster started the thread was he was getting case separations just above the web.
 
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