F/TR: 223 or 308?

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Phil3

Guest
I inputted data into www.jbmballistics.com and was surprised to see that the trajectory and wind drift for the 223 with an 80 grain Sierra MatchKing (2900 fps) is superior to the same bullet in 168 grain for a 308 (2650 fps). Why then, would one use the harder recoiling 308 in F/TR?

- Phil
 
FTR 223 vs 308

Phil3:

You will find the 223 won't keep up with a Berger 185 in a 308 at 1000 yards.

No one will stop you from shooting the 223 but they will beat your scores with a 308 almost every day.

The 223 is a great round but not enough horse power for the heavier bullets with a high enough BC to be competetive.

I am sure you will find someone who disagrees but look at the scores.

Nat Lambeth
 
I checked again with the 185 grain, and the 223 still shoots flatter, but the 308 185 grain does better in the wind vs the 223. It takes ever so slightly less time than the 223 to get to target, but clearly, the 185 grain 308 is the way to go. My calculations used a bullet too light in weight.

- Phil
 
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Phil3 said:
I checked again with the 185 grain, and the 223 still shoots flatter, but the 308 185 grain does better in the wind vs the 223. It takes ever so slightly less time than the 223 to get to target, but clearly, the 185 grain 308 is the way to go. My calculations used a bullet too light in weight.

- Phil
Click to expand...

Phil,
At my club, our typical F/Class T/R shoot at 600 yards is 3, 25 round relays (some of those are sighters). Are you prepared to shoot 75 rounds of 185 grain bullets from a .308 on a tripod? That's a lot of recoil, especially in the prone position. The .223 may overall outshoot the .308 in a match because of the recoil issue. However, if you take your weight to the 17 pound max, it may be okay. Just my 2 cents worth.

Richard
 
Richard,

Your points are precisely the reason I asked my question. I have shot a few rounds out of a 308 rifle off a bench, and if recoil is worse in prone, I don't think I would call 75 rounds of that, "fun". A more controllable rifle in 223 may be more accurate, just because of reduced recoil.

- Phil
 
FTR VS F-Open

With FTR you are limited to 223 or 308 and a 18.3 pound rifle.

With F-Open you can shoot any caliber and your rifle can weigh 22 lbs.

I shoot a 6mmBRX and one can hardly tell one is shooting.

Rustystud
 
With regards to F-Class, I much prefer to shoot a 6mmBR, but like the less high end atmosphere of F/TR. If 6mmBR was in F/TR, I would love that!

- Phil
 
I have shot a few rounds out of a 308 rifle off a bench, and if recoil is worse in prone, I don't think I would call 75 rounds of that, "fun".
Click to expand...

Geeze the recoil of a .308 isn't that bad... Shoot it all the time wearing a "T" shirt.

Some folks run .22 rimfire F-Class matches durring the winter. :rolleyes:
 
AJ300MAG said:
Geeze the recoil of a .308 isn't that bad... Shoot it all the time wearing a "T" shirt.

Some folks run .22 rimfire F-Class matches durring the winter. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

The 308 I shot was a M1A, shooting medium to hot loads. I was wearing a light jacket. I shot maybe 20 rounds out of it, and it was OK, but understand felt recoil is heavier when prone. I don't want recoil to be a distraction for precision shooting.

- Phil
 
Even at 18.15 lbs. my .308 Win. is no fun for me over 60-80 rounds, I use my .223 Rem. out to 600 yds. with great results.
 
I don't want recoil to be a distraction for precision shooting.
Click to expand...

I can give you a couple of names of petite young ladys who don't seem to have an issue with the recoil of a .308 along with an older gentleman who's been shooting for over 60 years.


Thinking F-Open would better suit your needs... ;)
 
Out to 600yds, I'm not sure you'd see the ballistic benefit of shooting a .308 Win over a hot .223 Rem. While there may be some edge to the .308 at distance, there is something to be said for shooting a round with less recoil and more shooter comfort. Some people can shoot the heavy boomers all day and giggle, some can't. I've watched a 16 or 17yr old girl shoot a .300 WM w/ 208s slung up @ 1k; not sure I'd want to do that and I out mass her by probably a factor of three. Not so much I can't (I've shot worse) but more I don't consider it much 'fun'.

Try re-running your analysis with a .223 Rem and a 90gr VLD, or take a look over on long-range.com for one test in progress...
 
milanuk said:
Out to 600yds, I'm not sure you'd see the ballistic benefit of shooting a .308 Win over a hot .223 Rem. While there may be some edge to the .308 at distance, there is something to be said for shooting a round with less recoil and more shooter comfort. Some people can shoot the heavy boomers all day and giggle, some can't. I've watched a 16 or 17yr old girl shoot a .300 WM w/ 208s slung up @ 1k; not sure I'd want to do that and I out mass her by probably a factor of three. Not so much I can't (I've shot worse) but more I don't consider it much 'fun'.

Try re-running your analysis with a .223 Rem and a 90gr VLD, or take a look over on long-range.com for one test in progress...
Click to expand...

If I run the analysis with MatchKings (Litz) in both 308, 180 grain and 223 at 90 grain, then the scales tilt in favor of the 223. Velocity for the 308 was 2650 fps and the 223 was 2750. Given that, and the reduced recoil, seems like the 223 would not be a bad bet.

- Phil
 
I'd have to agree... there's what the books and loading manuals use (and what people starting out should probably heed, until they have a little bit of experience), and whats in common use on the firing line. The people running the 185s that I talk to are running between 2750 and 2850 (yikes), and if you looked at that thread I linked to, 2750 is kind of on the low end of what people really pushing the envelope with a 90gr VLD are going for. In both situations these folk are generally running custom throated chambers built to spec. Try running some of those loads in other guns of similar caliber and you might be in for a rude surprise.
 
I Should Have

Added a disclaimer to my post Monte... :eek:

I thought it was high also, until I ran some for myself. These were coated (hBN) bullets well of the lands (.03"~.06"). As noted, start at the begining load and work up CAREFULLY!
 
.223 ft/r

Today I shot my first match so take this with a grain of salt. I shot both my .308 and my .223. With my .223 I was shooting a 50 grain vmax out of a 12 twist barrel and I did just fine, even in big wind from the 600 yard line.
Now if you use a heavier bullet more suite for target competition, at 600 yards and less, I see no reason to burn twice as much powder in a 308. After todays experience, I will keep shooting my .223 with that light 50 grain vmax bullet at all the mid range matches and my 308 for long range matches. When I have the money, I'll put a fast twist barrel on and shoot 80 grain bergers so it won't hurt so much when I miss a switch or a let off. Until then, watch out for my 50's they shoot like lasers when the wind doesn't blow.
 
It's not ALL about BC. Shot a 7/300WSM with 180 VLD's against a 338LM with 300MK's. On paper the BC's are very close. In the real world, the BC's are almost identical from chronograph tests. The 338 shot much straighter to 700 yards. Bullet weight seems to account for something.
 
.223 vs .308

I ran into this same discussion years ago. Particularly after having our clocks cleaned in a palma match in canada by a fellow shooting a .223. The problem is "real world" measurements. With the .308 you have a bigger case, bullet etc as such a variation in load, bullet ogive,seating depth, bullet jacket concentrancy etc etc etc which would make a huge differance in the .223 because of the smaller size would probably be unnoticed in the .308.
 
more .223 vs .308

By the way if you run the number for the 90gr .223 from a bolt gun they look even better on paper.
 
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