Exporting from the U.S. ?

D

Dennis Sorensen

Guest
Exporting from the U.S. - The silly version

Posted for general information as many are not aware of current restrictions. Don't ask me questions, ask the links within this thread.

Exporting from the U.S.

Articles that cannot be exported without an export license are many.
Scopes, firearm parts, components all are listed as defense articles.

Persons intending to export firearms or any other defense article need to first register with the U.S. Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. After registration, they will need to apply for an export license. For permanent exports, this license is called a DSP-5. You can read U.S. export regulations by consulting our website at www.pmddtc.state.gov.

Select Regulations and Laws at the left hand side, then click on “click here” just after the heading “Official ITAR and Amendments. The second link on the page contains the official United States Munitions List, and will indicate defense articles. For the formal definition of a defense article, see ITAR 120.6, which is contained within the first link.

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[Cheechako] Ray does not accept email or private messages but he has continually asked me to check with the Canadian Post Office about mailing inert ammunition. It seems in the past he has had problems with Canada Post and shipments of inert ammunition.

I have sent an email inquiry to Canada Post and will post the results here when I receive them.

Below in italics is my inquiry to them:
I know it is perfectly legal to ship an empty unprimed cartridge case in the mail. It is simply a piece of formed brass. By the same token a copper jacketed lead bullet is perfectly legal to mail. I know ammunition is not legal to mail because of the powder and priming compound. This makes sense.

INERT ammunition is ammunition that has had the powder and priming compound removed. It is not capable of firing or burning. It is INERT. It is not different than the empty unprimed brass case or the jacketed lead bullet. Now we get to my questions. Please answer yes or no and in the case of no please explain the rationale.

Can an inert unprimed empty brass cartridge case be mailed?
Can an inert copper jacketed lead bullet be mailed?
Can an inert solid copper bullet be mailed?
Can an inert solid lead bullet be mailed?
Can inert ammunition(ammunition that has had the powder and priming compound removed) be mailed?

If you are not familiar with cartridges and powder and primers and ammunition please forward this to someone who is for the correct answers and explanations.

Thank you, Dennis

It actually will not matter much about what Canada Post has to say as I understand from the link in post 1 of this thread, presently US regulations prevent the export of inert munitions/cartridge cases/bullets without import/export licenses in place previous to shipping. This includes businesses and individuals.
 
Dennis

Thanks for sending that inquiry to Canada Post. I'm hoping they answer and that the response is something positive.

Not too long ago my PC crashed to the ground and burned. You don't realize how much you depend on it until you lose it. Anyway, I was able to trace the cause to viruses (viruii ?) from email and PM links on another site (not BR Central) so when I got back on-line I blocked them on all just to be sure. I don't want to go thru that again, ever.:mad:

Ray
 
The first response I have received this morning... I'll have to forward this and wait again. It appears Canada Post don't have a ruling in effect...

Hello Dennis,

Thank you for your message to Canada Post.

For more detailed information on dangerous goods we recommend that your contact Canutec at the following:

CANUTEC
Transport Dangerous Goods Directorate
Transport Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1A 0N5
(613) 992-4624 (Phone) (613) 954-5101 (FAX)
canutec@tc.gc.ca (e-mail)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/canutec (Internet)

Regards,

Veronika Strofski
Customer Service
 
For more detailed information on dangerous goods we recommend that your contact Canutec at the following:

I thought the definition of Inert meant it wasn't dangerous goods?
I also think your including too many items in your list.The munitions list has 2 categories and the cases a collector like Ray would receive or not considered SME's.
Waterboy

Edited to include factual information.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Exporting from the U.S.?

Dennis has correctly stated the case that American individuals or businesses cannot export ammo components, scopes and so on without permits.
The legal procedure:
1.Canadian, business or person, must obtain an International importation Certificate (IIC) from CAD Foreign Affairs.
2. The IIC is provided to the U.S. exporter.
3. The U.S. exporter sends the IIC along with application to export to the U.S. State Department.
4. State Department isssues export permit and you are good to go.

Regarding Canada Post, they do have a "no mail" list including "inert munitions"; components are not inert munitions unless assembled(brass +bullet).

There has been misinterpretation of brass being inert munitions by customs on behalf of Canada Post

We send brass and bullets daily through Canada Post and deal with Nightforce scopes through the noted procedure.

Regards and Hapy New Year from,

Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision Inc.
Lapua in Canada
 
Peter
Do you have a link or website showing that we can't send brass out of the country?

The link provided by Dennis includes a munitions list which says SME in it.25 pieces of 458 brass sent as a gift are not considered Significant Military Equipment.It also list the two categories and most are either loaded rounds are strictly military in nature.

I realise Canada has its own set of issues but I'd like to see something in writing so we remove personal/business related interpretation from the discussion.The link provided by Dennis is aimed at the defense industry and not Joe Six-Pack.
Lynn aka Waterboy

Peter
Here is the actual reason why we can export some items
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Exporting from the US.?

We recommend that you contact the U.S. State .

Regards,

Peter
 
Lynn said:
The link provided by Dennis is aimed at the defense industry and not Joe Six-Pack.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Click to expand...

Lynn - in the link if you read to the page titled

Department of State 121.1
Category III

It does includes brass and components... and it does not exclude small gifts from individuals...

and if you guys would simply contact the US State Department they will confirm all of what I have been saying.
 
Dennis and Peter
If you re-read article III it specificaly links to Articles I and II meaning SME or significant Military Equipment.It specifiicaly states 60 caliber or larger and includes Howitzers.
I don't see anything there saying you can't send 257 Roberts brass to England or Germany.You can't send yellow cake or nuclear guidance systems to Iran.
I don't know about Canada but down here you can contact your local representatives office and pose them a question.A staff member will call you back with the answer.
A manufacturer can't send anything anywhere without a license down here.
I would pull the data straight from the website to show you but I can't cut copy and paste from there pdf files.
Waterboy

This is straight from the State Department
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Lynn said:
Dennis and Peter
If you re-read article III it specificaly links to Articles I and II meaning SME or significant Military Equipment.It specifiicaly states 60 caliber or larger and includes Howitzers.
I don't see anything there saying you can't send 257 Roberts brass to England or Germany.You can't send yellow cake or nuclear guidance systems to Iran.
I don't know about Canada but down here you can contact your local representatives office and pose them a question.A staff member will call you back with the answer.
A manufacturer can't send anything anywhere without a license down here.
I would pull the data straight from the website to show you but I can't cut copy and paste from there pdf files.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

Sorry to intrude, Lynn, can you email me, I have tried to contact you and it keeps bouncing back. Thanks, Ron
 
Lynn, I'd hate like the very devil to call up a US Representative or Senator's office and ask them a question about something that could possibly end up with YOU getting fined or chucked in the slammer. If nothing else you could end up paying through the nose to have a lawyer keep you out of trouble. The person answering your question might be well intentioned, but not know what's going on.

I'd call the agency, whichever one it is now, but it used to be Customs and Immigration, that's in control of importation and exportation.

Whatever, get something in writing, not just the statement that, "Joe at whatever agency said I could do it...."

I'd rather be overcautious on stuff like this than end up in front of a judge trying to keep out of jail or from getting a big fine. Remember if you're convicted of a crime for which you COULD HAVE BEEN sentenced to a year in jail or $1000 fine you can't own firearms.
 
I've posted this on other threads but I suppose it's worth repeating.

I collect cartridges. I trade with other collectors all over the world. England, Italy, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, you name it. Anywhere where it's legal to own cartridges. We send our INERT cartridges through the Mail. We are required to attach a Customs Declaration to each envelope or box defining the contents, value, and purpose. We don't try to lie about it. We say they are Inert Cartridges, minimum value, as a gift. When the USPS accepts the package they check the Declaration keep the copy and give me a receipt. I believe that Homeland Security is now the controlling US agency for Customs Declarations. When I receive a package from overseas I get a notice from USPS and I pick it up and sign for it at the USPS office. If this is illegal you would think that someone, somewhere along the line, in one of the countries, would have said something.

I don't want to get into the whole USA vs Canada thing again.

Ray
 
Larry Elliot

Larry I have no intention of getting into trouble over any shipments anywhere.

If you read the link provided by Dennis it clearly states that the scopes must be military in design and that the brass must be 60 caliber or militarily significant before you can't ship them.In simple english they are talking about night vision and depleted uranium bullets.The link provided is aimed at individuals or businesses dealing with military products.
My representative out here is Joe Nation or Lynn Woolsey and when I had bullets stuck in the mail they gave me the necessary documentation to get them delivered.They were stuck in Chattanooga.Tennessee by a postmaster who thought bullets exploded.
Waterboy

This is why we can export.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Well this thread is getting way off topic....

It started out trying to answer a question from Ray... and it will end up with that answer eventually. The question is about Canada not accepting 'inert munitions' in the mail... whether it is a policy or not, apparently inert munitions have been refused by Canada... whether it was the post office or customs or an individual in error ... is unknown at this time...

When I get an answer from the Canadian authorities I will edit this thread and supply an answer for Ray.

There are many you in the US however (and in Canada), who don't have a clue when it comes to what you can (as an individual) legally export according to US laws, without an export license.

Good luck with that.

And have a Happy New Year...:)
 
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Dennis
Your original post says nothing at all about importing inert brass into Canada for Cheechako.This is your opening line "Posted for general information as many are not aware of current restrictions. Don't ask me questions, ask the links within this thread"

It sounds like you are posting a generic thread for those curious about shipping worldwide.

Ray can contact his representative monday by phone and get an answer by phone usually in a matter of minutes.

You are also implying we don't know our own rules.It might suprise you to know what some of us actually do for a living and what that entails.
Waterboy

Factual informationV. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7 not guessing.
 
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Thanks Peter.

Here are just two excerpts from the 23 pages in the attachment.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/61643.pdf

preamble-0.jpg

...
definitions-0.jpg


.
 
Dennis
If you ever get the chance to visit The United States visit a Post Office.They have export forms sitting on the shelf and you fill them out and attach them to your package.
If you want to send loaded ammunition,firearms or nuclear reactor parts to Iran they look down upon that immediately.If you want to send a cartridge case to England they say nothing at all.
We cannot send Loaded Ammunition,Primers or Powder to anyone in The United States from within The United States right now as an individual.If I wanted to send Primers from Texas to Oklahoma as a individual it cannot be done.I can however take the primers to a gunshop and pay them to ship them for me.None of this can go through the Postal Service at all and to ship with UPS you need to complete an exam.
A business such as Cabelas or Midway can send through the postal service but a individual can not.
A barrel blank,bullets or cases can be sent out without any worries on our end.It is the receiving country such as Canada that is the fly in the ointment.
Waterboy

Straight from the State Department not some guessing.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Exporting to the U. S.

As mentioned earlier, this is getting worn out desite effort to point out American regulations. The U.S Postal Service and Canadian regulators are not the issue, it is the State Department. Canadians with components have been stopped on the U.S. side and had their product seized by U. S. Customs.

Regards,

Peter
 
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