'Dollied' rifling...

M

mhb

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I tried previously to get some input on the nature of WW2 Enfield barrels described as having 'dollied' rifling, but I didn't use the term in the title of the posting - I'm hoping that re-posting my query with the subject made clear will attract someone who can explain by what process such barrels were actually made.
The term came up in a book about the WW2 #4 rifles - the various barrel types were described, and one, evidently an (unsuccessful) wartime expedient, was described as having been made from steel tubing, with the breech reinforce (nock's form) shrunk and pinned to the barrel. The barrels were described as having rifling 'dollied' into the tube, and were also said to have a 'dull' appearance to the rifling, as opposed to conventionally-rifled #4 barrels, though it wasn't clear whether the shape of the lands and grooves or the surface finish in the bore was thought to be 'dull'.
I've inquired at various fora, but have thusfar received only speculation about what process was referred to as 'dollying' in barrel making - the likely candidates are hammer-forging and buttoning, but I'd really like an authoritative reference, if available, since I've never encountered the term in reference to barrel making anywhere else.
Can anyone clarify the matter?
Thanks;
mhb - Mike
 
You had one response in your old thread that makes sense to me...

I quote, "Damn, I should have read further, not just checked out the captions on the illustrations. Britain trialled three groove dollied, that is, hammer forged, barrels after the one I mentioned in my previous post, but these hammer forged barrels weren't successful, so they discontinued the trial.

There has to be some relationship to the process of forming sheet panels by hammering against a shaped hand held metal anvil, known as a dolly. ".

At this stage I am assuming 'dollied' is hammer forged...
 
Dennis and FB ...

I did take note of Mr. Keilly's response, but it was he, not the quoted reference (so far as I could see from his post) who equated 'dollied' rifling with hammer-forging, and what I am looking for is an authoritative reference: someone must know what the term means in Britain, as applied to barrel manufacture, and there should be a good reference source (I hope!).
FB: No obvious relation to Damascus or other pattern-welded barrels, and, since the subject barrels were said to have been made from (presumably drawn) steel tubing, there is no likelihood there is any connection - neither were pattern-welded barrels used in any Lee-Enfield rifles, military or commercial, so far as I am aware.
Thanks;
mhb - Mike
 
J.k. ...

Could you please give a full quote of Skennerton's comments on the 'dollied' barrels?
Thanks;
mhb - Mike
 
"Dollying" was used as a slang or regional term for hammering in the UK. I remember being instructed to finish a wounded animal off by "dolly(ing) it over the head"

I think I read about the dollied barrels in either Skennerton, or the HMSO publication "British Rifles" which referred to some of the Enfield pattern room collection.

Either way, it's 20 something years since I read it, so I can't really remember.

have you tried a google books search for the term? I'm coming up with the journal of the Newcommen Soc, but there is no preview available:

http://books.google.ie/books?client=firefox-a&cd=1&q=dolly+rifling+barrels&btnG=Search+Books

you might want to play around with the phrasing of the search.
 
alpacca45:

Thank you for the tip! I went directly to the homepage of the Newcomen Society (UK), and discovered that their archives can be searched - however, the only reference I could find to 'dollying' in gunmaking (from 'Gun Making Handicrafts', C.E. Greener, 1924) was in regard to a device used by barrel grinders to hold the barrel in contact with the grinding wheel. There were other references, such as in forging and welding chains (by hammering), but nothing which connected hammering (as 'dollying') with barrel making.
The search goes on!
mhb - Mike
 
Rotary Hammer forging sounds right. It leaves a fairly dull finish compared to cut rifling thats been lapped, or button rifling.

The shrink fit reinforce would become loose after awhile, with poor accuracy showing up before and likelyhood of separation occured. Similar tube barrels which threaded into the reinforce were used to convert Carcano actions to 7.62 Nato at one time, and used commercially to convert carcano actions to some other calibers.

Sleeving a cut off barrel shank was a common practice when converting Enfields to smaller caliber wildcats based on the .303 case. Some used threading, others used silver brazing and cross pins for lower pressure chamberings.
 
Old Gunner:

Comments received so far do seem to make hammer forging the most likely candidate, but there has still been no convincing reference offered.
I can't agree as to the surface finish produced in modern hammer-forged barrels - they are usually very uniform and smooth, if properly made. I don't know what the referenced barrels looked like inside, never having seen one (and comments elsewhere make me believe that hardly anyone else has, either).
The Truth is Out There! (Somewhere).
mhb - Mike
 
Going on very unreliable memory of what I read over 20 years ago (posibly over 25 years ago), I think that the British process may have been hot or several hunderd degrees C warm working.

Add to that, tungsten carbide was largely a German wartime development, due to the allies cutting off their suply of diamonds for the drawing dies for tungsten lamp filaments, the Germans found an alternative. After the war, at least some of the engineers responsible went to Sweden, and contributed to Atlas Copco's development of tungsten carbide rock drills.

Pulling this back onto topic, the Brits would have been using a tool steel mandrel or button to form the rifling.

Merle H. Walker's US patent for button rifling in the 50s used tool steel buttons, and the essential ingredients of either lead or (preferably) copper plating in the bore to lubricate the passage of the button and prevent galling.

Just guessing, but, any of those could have been the missing ingredient(s).

This is the other place I could have read about dollying, but unfortunately my copy is in storage and google doesn't have any previews http://books.google.ie/books?id=AYKmAAAACAAJ&dq=british+rifles&hl=en&ei=7iS2S6HPA6eW4gar9OT3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA
 
mhb said:
I can't agree as to the surface finish produced in modern hammer-forged barrels - they are usually very uniform and smooth, if properly made.
Mike
Click to expand...
The process has been greatly improved.
I've read that the Hammer forged barrels of the L42 rifles had a dull inish inside and the user was instructed that this was the normal appearance and not a sign of fouling.

The Enfields with two piece barrels were supposed to have been withdrawn and rebarreled with conventionally constructed barrels long ago, so few likely still exist.
 
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Found my reference :)

Woodend, H. 1981 "British Rifles; catalogue of the Enfield Pattern Room", Published by HMSO, London. ISBN 0 11 771930 7.

The reference is on page 53 and covers two rifles in the pattern room collection (apparently now housed at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, along with the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield's archives).


RB271
Rifle No.4 Mk.i, .303" with Mk. iii barrel
L 44.3 in B25.2 In, W 8lb 10 oz

The Mk.iii barrel fitted to this specimen was introduced as a temporary measure in 1943. Developed by Accles & Pollock, the well known steel company, this barrel was manufactured from drawn steel tube with the nocksform made as a seperate sleeve, shrunk and pinned to the breech end. Rifling is 5 groove as for the Mk i barrel, but the interior finish of the bore is noticeably dull. This fabricated barrel was unsuccessful due mainly to moovement which often developed between the barrel tube and the breech sleeve. The rifle is marked on the left body: "No.4 Mk.I ROF(F) 7/43".


RB 272
Rifle No.4 Mk.I, .303", with experimental 3-Groove Barrel.
L 44.3 in B 25.2 in w 8 lb 14 oz
This rifle was prepared for trials of barrels manufactured by the method known as "Dollying". This process involves a former which is forced through a barrel to produce the rifling without any metal being cut away. Although not successful at that time, an improved system of barrel production by a similar swaging method has been widely employed in post war years.


This doesn't get us much further forward in understanding how the method worked, but it does indicate at least two experimental methods of barrel fabrication being tried.
 
Holy crap you'se guys are good...!

I mean it, I admire all those who'll spend the time to share information.

al
 
alpacca45 said:
Woodend, H. 1981 "British Rifles; catalogue of the Enfield Pattern Room", Published by HMSO, London. ISBN 0 11 771930 7.




RB 272
Rifle No.4 Mk.I, .303", with experimental 3-Groove Barrel.
L 44.3 in B 25.2 in w 8 lb 14 oz
This rifle was prepared for trials of barrels manufactured by the method known as "Dollying". This process involves a former which is forced through a barrel to produce the rifling without any metal being cut away. Although not successful at that time, an improved system of barrel production by a similar swaging method has been widely employed in post war years.[/I]


This doesn't get us much further forward in understanding how the method worked, but it does indicate at least two experimental methods of barrel fabrication being tried.
Click to expand...

Actually, it does sound very much like button rifling in that what they describe seems to be a swaging rather than a cutting process.
 
Mike,

My apologies. It wasn't until this thread was revived that I realised that I hadn't responded to your question.

Ian Skennerton: The British Service Lee 1982 P 162 (not 163)

ISBN 0 9597438 8 X

John
 

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John & Alpacca:

Thank you both very much! I hadn't looked at this thread in quite some time, and was pleasantly surprised to see it surface again.
The process as described in the reference John provided would have to be classified as hammer forging - since it comes from a standard reference, I'll take it as authoritative, though the description Alpacca gives of the 3-groove barrels (from another presumably authoritative reference) sounds like what we would now call buttoning.
I'm still left wondering why the earlier 2-piece barrels had a bore finish that was described as 'dull', and by what process they were made (but that's really idle curiosity).
I have no doubt that both processes were tried with varying success by several of the parties to WW2.
Thanks again;
mhb - Mike
 
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