Crimp and Bullet Grip

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Flouncer

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First post here. For my lack of a better word. My bullets are loose. I just started reloading again after about a ten year hiatus. Same problem as when I left off. Apologize in advance for the rust in my knowledge and nomenclature. I am using a Lee Custom Carbide die in 6.5-06 that was made by Lee after a fired brass and chamber cast was sent to them by my gunsmith. I have shot hundreds of rounds through this weapon since the new barrel, trigger, etc. I re set exactly to the directions to neck size and seat the bullets. I end up with a loose bullet. I checked both the dies, and I am getting a COL of 3.325" with 142 gr SMK. Case Length is 2.494, and the case size trimmer isn't removing hardly anything. i.e. my cases aren't really being worked by the load I last used. Remington 25-06 brass, has been neck sized, fire formed, and probably shot no more than 3 times at full load, i.e. 50.5 gr H4831 for 2850 fps on the chrono. Everything AOK after the reload, but the bullets are loose enough to push in with gentle finger pressure. I simply put more pressure on the end of the seating stroke, and the bullets are a little tighter. But the lee press looks like this will kill it, and the table is flexing under the arm pressure. But I can dislodge the bullet pretty easily. If I carefully hand chamber a single round at a time, I could be OK, but I am concerned a magazine fed, bolt chambered round will jam a loose bullet into the case, reducing the volume and changing the pressure. nehhhhh not what I want tot contemplate.

How tight are match or target bullets supposed to be ?

I thought for a second about my brass neck thickness and concentricity, but to my understanding, this shouldn't affect the neck gripping the bullet. The mandrel and rod form the dimension to do that.

I will call Lee tomorrow if I can get free at work, but thought I would throw this out there to see if I can't head this off first.

Any comment or recommendations welcome.
 
You're going to get a lot more info from more experienced people than me, but I'll put in my .02.

I don't think you want the bullets THAT loose! Measure the diameter of the mandrel against which you are necksizing, It should be 2 or 3 thousandths smaller than the diameter of the bullet for which you are loading. There is some springback of the brass once it is somewhat workhardened, but if the ID of the brass ends up being 2 thou smaller than the bullet, you should have reasonable tension. At least I do in 6ppc.

Perhaps they sent you a strange mandrel? Those are only $9 direct from www.leeprecision.com, so you could replace it. There is also a possibility that they would make a custom one (I'm thinking of getting a couple different dia's so I can adjust neck tension).

I have not crimped rifle bullets as I only target shoot bolt actions hand fed, so can't coment on that, but my 223 and 6ppc both had no problems with lee neck collets ending up with bullets that were well seated and could be jammed .010 into the lands without a problem if desired. Yours would clearly not be able to do that.
 
If you measure that mandrel (it comes out easily) and find that it is not sufficiently smaller than the diameter of the bullet you are going to seat, then depending on the level of equipment in your house, you can turn or grind or sand it down a bit also, to make the neck tension higher. Obviously, you'd prefer to keep it circular! Getting Lee to get you the right one would be the optimal solution.

If you're using a lee neck sizing die, you should be able to measure the OD of the neck after firing (should be similar to the ID of your chamber at that point) and then neck size and find that the OD has gotten smaller. If not, you may have the die set up with a problem or someting is awry inside it When the collet is pressured, it squeezes the neck and sometimes you can see the vertical lines left where the parts of the collet came together. That, plus using a caliper to measure the OD at different parts of the neck, will show you how much of the neck you are sizing. You probably want to be sizing a fair bit of the neck, enough to cover a "caliber's" worth if you have that much bullet into the case.

With my lee dies, you can definitely tell that youare SEATING the bullet when you seat it (in all calibers that I reload). Using a wilson seater and an arbor press I was stunned at the force/resistance the first time (on a 3" moment arm) after being so familar with the nearly effortless seating on the press.

I have tried to use a collet die to make "loose necks" when hunting for the exact location of the lands -- it took just a TINY amount of force on the press when neck sizing to do this. I think Lee tells you to push with 20 lbs or so when neck sizing, and this DEFINITELY will squish the neck right down to the mandrel. Those details might help you.
 
Doc !!

Thanks for the reply. Patients please. I think you clonked the old nail on the head for me. You say you are not using a crimping die. The 10-year fog is clearing. I don't think I am either. :confused: So, my mandrel is a leeeetle fat, so my neck is a little big on the inside. Loose. So I need to disassemble the die, and very carefully measure the mandrel. And it should be a few thou greater than the bullet. Which I can also measure. My old RCBS caliper aint going to hack it anymore for this one.

I need a new tool, at the very least. It's all coming back to me. $$$$$ And I am at a fledgling stage, a mere infant with a surplus Mauser.

I'll try taking the die apart and cleaning the mandrel off, see if that doesn't reduce it the few thou. Thanks for input.
 
Measured

I cleaned the caliper carefully. It runs smoothly and returns to 0.00. But....

None of my case dimensions match the Sierra manual except the COL. Never mind that.

I measured several times. The bullet, the neck ID and the mandrel all measure 0.262". The bullet should be 0.264" ????? Even if my caliper measurements are off, or the instrument is inaccurate, the relative measurements suggest that the mandrel is too big, i/e it's the same size as the bullet diameter. So thats not going to give a snug fit.

Call Mr. Lee in the AM re: a new part or two. I found my paperwork from 1998 and it has the signature of the employee on the paperwork with accuracy guarantee. Thanks for your time. :)
 
I have never worked with this caliber, so all I can give is generic advice.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/...data(Rifle)/264Cal(6.5mm)/6.5 06 Page 232.pdf

that web site says the bullet should be .264 inches in diameter, so if you are measuring .262, either your measurement is wrong, or you have the wrong bullets!

If that mandrel is .262, that would appear to work OK for .264 bullets, because the brass would be squished smaller than the bullet, allowing it to grip the bullet.

I am not really an expert (just got started after a recent presidential election) but is it possible that you have bullets from some other caliber, or bullets that were not accurately made for 6.5?
 
If using the Lee Collet dies, you can take the mandrel out and chuck it up in a drill press or fast hand drill. With a fine file and emory paper you can easily take it down in diameter about .002-.004 inch. Make sure you do it all the way. The collet will squeeze the neck down to the mandrel and make it tighter.

Donald
 
Check

Thanks all for the helpful advice. My first reload batch in almost a decade used 142 gr SMK from two different boxes. One from the 90's and a brand new box. I doubt they are both off 0.002 in two boxes a decade apart. My caliper may be a little off. er... Bullets from both boxes measure .262 with it. As does the mandrel. I know some of you must be cringing or laughing your tail off. Isn't a finer measure instrument a mircometer ? At any rate, I think I need a new measuring tool. Fo the fine measurements under an inch or so, don't you use a mic instead of a caliper ?

I re-sized all my fired cases when I started this venture, so I don't have a comparison with fired cases. I have 37 old loaded cases from 1999 or so, they have 160 gr roundnose hunting bullets. 47 necksized and primed cases, 25 of those loaded. Survivors from an original 100. I'll go shoot these very carefully at the range and re-measure some fired dimensions with a new instrument. I checked the loaded cases and over half are loose enough to slide the bullet with gentle hand pressure.

If I pull the bullets, dump the powder, can I safely de-prime these while re-necksizing ? The decapping pin will surely contact the primers, going the inverse direction from a firing pin. I don't think if I can neck size with the required ram lever pressure without having the full stroke. Not worried about wasting the primers, I have 2 full boxes of a 1,000 each.

Then, on to plan B

With a fine file and emory paper you can easily take it down in diameter about .002-.004 inch. Make sure you do it all the way.
Click to expand...

Absolutely no down size to trying this a little at a time. Thanks again.

I have no grand benchrest delusion here. I posted here after searching and reading what I could on this site. The signal to noise ratio is very good, and I was sure I could get straight forward answers to some very elementary questions. I do not intend to bench rest compete, but my objective is to engage my 14 yo son in something that demands patients, some math and measuring skills, and has positive rewards. And to learn to respect and cherish the second amendment. At the end, I want him to punch a target at 1,000 yards with a century old weapon. :)
 
You can get a digital caliper from midwayusa.com this week on sale for $13.00 Mine is accurate enough so that it is never off .002 on a bullet diameter!!!!


You probably could slowly and smoothly deprime all those shells with your lee collet die (I've done a few, usually by accident) but there is an easier way:

If you have a kinetic bullet puller (looks like a plastic hammer, about $15), you can shake out the bullet. Otherwise, you pull out the ones you can easily, and shoot the rest.

The ones you can get the bullet out of, you pour the powder out of, and then you hand load the primed case into your rifle, point toward a safe location with hearing protection on, and shoot the primer. It makes a reasonably loud noise. THEN you deprime, and recollet with your trimmed down mandrel (as previous poster pointed out how to trim down). Or you use a new mandrel from Lee.

Either method should get you going.
 
I think you would want the mandrel to measure more like .003-.004 under the diameter of the bullet to account for the .001-.002 springback of the brass. That is just a number I have heard thrown around and have not verified myself. Good luck.

Joe

docsleepy said:
I have never worked with this caliber, so all I can give is generic advice.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/...data(Rifle)/264Cal(6.5mm)/6.5 06 Page 232.pdf

that web site says the bullet should be .264 inches in diameter, so if you are measuring .262, either your measurement is wrong, or you have the wrong bullets!

If that mandrel is .262, that would appear to work OK for .264 bullets, because the brass would be squished smaller than the bullet, allowing it to grip the bullet.

I am not really an expert (just got started after a recent presidential election) but is it possible that you have bullets from some other caliber, or bullets that were not accurately made for 6.5?
Click to expand...
 
Flouncer ...

Flouncer said:
First post here. For my lack of a better word. My bullets are loose. I just started reloading again after about a ten year hiatus. Same problem as when I left off. Apologize in advance for the rust in my knowledge and nomenclature. I am using a Lee Custom Carbide die in 6.5-06 that was made by Lee after a fired brass and chamber cast was sent to them by my gunsmith. I have shot hundreds of rounds through this weapon since the new barrel, trigger, etc. I re set exactly to the directions to neck size and seat the bullets. I end up with a loose bullet. I checked both the dies, and I am getting a COL of 3.325" with 142 gr SMK. Case Length is 2.494, and the case size trimmer isn't removing hardly anything. i.e. my cases aren't really being worked by the load I last used. Remington 25-06 brass, has been neck sized, fire formed, and probably shot no more than 3 times at full load, i.e. 50.5 gr H4831 for 2850 fps on the chrono. Everything AOK after the reload, but the bullets are loose enough to push in with gentle finger pressure. I simply put more pressure on the end of the seating stroke, and the bullets are a little tighter. But the lee press looks like this will kill it, and the table is flexing under the arm pressure. But I can dislodge the bullet pretty easily. If I carefully hand chamber a single round at a time, I could be OK, but I am concerned a magazine fed, bolt chambered round will jam a loose bullet into the case, reducing the volume and changing the pressure. nehhhhh not what I want tot contemplate.

How tight are match or target bullets supposed to be ?

I thought for a second about my brass neck thickness and concentricity, but to my understanding, this shouldn't affect the neck gripping the bullet. The mandrel and rod form the dimension to do that.

I will call Lee tomorrow if I can get free at work, but thought I would throw this out there to see if I can't head this off first.

Any comment or recommendations welcome.
Click to expand...

Before you buy anything, start by reading this: http://www.benchrest.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=69. Then get a hold of Mike Ratigan's book "Extreme Rifle Accuracy." :)
 
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