Cost for rebarrel -- and how

M

Montana Pete

Guest
I have been discussing some shooting issues regarding a pretty good factory rifle. This is a Savage Model 12 in 22-250.

So many respondents have stated that my gun is doing fine for a factory rifle, but way less than a premium barrel rifle.

Does anyone have any guess as to what kind of money we are talking about to rebarrel this Savage to a good barrel?

I am not saying, just a standard grade barrel, but a selected barrel that is worth the trouble to replace.

Should I just start calling local gunsmiths, asking if they can do this conversion? Or does the gun have to be sent in somewhere?

Thanks for any helpful comments--
 
The British term for "rebarreling" is "fitting a barrel" and maybe that's a better description. It isn't simply the quality of the barrel. The quality of the chambering is where everything starts.

I wrote this long ago in response to a question about case neck turning in a factory rifle, but in passing, it covers the advantages of a good chambering job.

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/2.2.shtml

If my factory Savages are typical, you will get both a better barrel from one of the custom benchrest barrel makers, and a better chambering job from a custom benchrest gunsmith. But *better* is a loaded term here. When we shoot competitive benchrest, the difference between a rifle capable of shooting .200 MOA and .250 MOA is tremendous -- when you think about it, it is the difference between winning and losing with those two rifles.

The question you have to ask yourself is, for your application, is .050 or even .100 improvement in grouping ability worth the $450 or so it will cost you?

If you decide to go ahead, don't call local smiths unless one of them happens to build competitive benchrest rifles.

FWIW
 
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Charles E said:
The British term for "rebarreling" is "fitting a barrel" and maybe that's a better description. It isn't simply the quality of the barrel. The quality of the chambering is where everything starts.

I wrote this long ago in response to a question about case neck turning in a factory rifle, but in passing, it covers the advantages of a good chambering job.

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/2.2.shtml

If my factory Savages are typical, you will get both a better barrel from one of the custom benchrest barrel makers, and a better chambering job from a custom benchrest gunsmith. But *better* is a loaded term here. When we shoot competitive benchrest, the difference between a rifle capable of shooting .200 MOA and .250 MOA is tremendous -- when you think about it, it is the difference between winning and losing with those two rifles.

The question you have to ask yourself is, for your application, is .050 or even .100 improvement in grouping ability worth the $450 or so it will cost you?

If you decide to go ahead, don't call local smiths unless one of them happens to build competitive benchrest rifles.

FWIW
Click to expand...


Yes.....

Your Savage will give you A LOT of options for a rebarrel job...
You can simply rebarrel yourself with a prefit and come out Quite happy........
Here are some barrel makers that do such work and Benchrest precision.


www.Shilen.com
www.pac-nor.com
www.douglasbarrels.net
www.mcgowenbarrel.com
www.lothar-walther.de/html/339.php



All the info for Savage rebarreling you'll need here as well:
www.savageshooters.com

You'll see that the Savage action gives a bunch of options for what you want to do.
good luck,
cale
 
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Montana ...

Go here: http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ for pricing info.

Sharp Shooter Supply is owned and operated by Fred Moreo. Fred has been a gunsmith for over 25 years and has dedicated his efforts to Savage firearms for the past 10+ years. Referred to as the "Savage Guru" by many, you can rest assured your SAVAGE will be in good hands.

Fred has done a lot of excellent work for me and has very competitive prices as well. Call and speak to Lisa. You'll need a job order number before sending your rifle. Art
 
I have a few questions for you. How is it shooting? What is your intended use for this rifle? What sort of reloading equipment and practices are you using? What sort of bench, rest, and sandbags are involved? How heavy is the trigger? What sort of bedding has been done? Are you shooting over wind flags?

Top accuracy requires attention to detail in all of these areas, and more. If you intend to keep the same caliber, and are not "maxed out" in any of these areas, you might want to continue your journey for a while with the barrel that you have. Also, if you want to get the most out of a new barrel, you might want to look into reamer/chamber design. I have seen many shooters stagger blindly into a rebarreling project, take what they were given for a chamber, only to find out that it missed the mark in some important way that limited the usefulness and or accuracy or their expensive new barrel.
 
Most if not all pre chambered Savage barrels ready to pre fit come with a standard SAAMI chamber. Meaning it will be cut to fit the largest case, probably with crud on it. You most likely will have to go to a custom reamer, ie. a tight neck, maybe no turn neck to get the results that you are looking for. You will not find BR accuracy with a standard chamber, period.
Donald
 
Montana Pete said:
Does anyone have any guess as to what kind of money we are talking about to rebarrel this Savage to a good barrel?
Click to expand...
$450 to $500 to have a quality gunsmith put a quality barrel on it. And I won't bother to say its probably not really a good investment, oh wait I guess I did say it.
 
Pete ...

Montana Pete said:
Does anyone have any guess as to what kind of money we are talking about to rebarrel this Savage to a good barrel
Click to expand...

SharpShootersSupply.com (the Savage specialist) charges $305-$325 for a chambered and threaded Douglas XX Air-Gauged barrel and $50 to headspace and install it. Figure another $20 to ship it there and another $20 for return shipping. Total: $375 to $395. Art
 
Donald said:
Most if not all pre chambered Savage barrels ready to pre fit come with a standard SAAMI chamber. Meaning it will be cut to fit the largest case, probably with crud on it. You most likely will have to go to a custom reamer, ie. a tight neck, maybe no turn neck to get the results that you are looking for. You will not find BR accuracy with a standard chamber, period.
Donald
Click to expand...

Don,

I have got to disagree with you here. If you get a Shaw or an A&B then yes. Shilen and PacNor use SAMMI minimum reamers plus they have dozens of other choices for common reamers (different neck sizes). Plus you can send them a couple of dummy round with your bullet seated to your preferred depth and they will throat it to your spec. Not true if you buy the over-the-counter Shilen from Midway, but it you order one as a custom you can get almost anything you want. McGowen will chamber anything you want for the extra cost of a reamer rental.

There are some really good prefit barrels available. Competitive for a registered match? Probably not.... but if you screwed one on your Viper or Bat custom it probably would be closer than you thank.

tiny
 
The replies to this thread are separating into two groups, (1) Savage's are great and (2) Benchrest.

As to the minimum SAAMI barrels: they are just that: SAAMI. Many of the benefits of a match chamber are lost, as is the extra work needed in preparing cases. I'm not trying to take away from any barrel manufacturers, I did quite well with a Pac-Nor on my Heavy Gun at the 1999 1,000-yard nationals. I don't remember the placings -- Steve Shelp has the data though, if anyone doubts it. But it was NOT prechambered.

So for Montana Pete, you need to decide what, if anything you want to do. For a sum of money, you can get a barrel that will certainly clean easier, and will likely be more accurate. No one can say how much more accurate; it could even be less. That would be one of the prefit barrels. For a slightly larger sum of money, you can have a barrel fitted by a benchrest gunsmith, one with a tighter neck, and we would all hope, tighter body dimensions as well. It will NOT be SAAMI, you will have to prepare cases. To take full advantage of it, you will likely also have to get dies that fit the particular chambering. If you want to pay for a reamer, you can do that, and get a reamer ground to match a particular sizing die (like Redding). It will then be your reamer, and you will have the theoretical best situation, a matched chamber and die. The reamer will cost you between $130 and $175, but that offsets the cost of a custom die, which can run around $60 (if Hornady is to be believed) to around $200 for a custom, hand made die.

All this is in addition to the cost of the barrel, and its fitting. And by the way, no one can guarantee a barrel. It could turn out that the new barrel does not shoot as well as your current barrel. Not likely, but possible.

But consider this: If a .22-250 is going to be in your life for a long time, by getting the reamer & die by whichever route, you will have a very good setup, and over the long hall, more accurate rifles. Think this way: a barrel lasts a short time, and is fitted to one action. A reamer and die are tools used to fit any barrel to any action you choose to buy, be it Savage, Remington, or custom. The commitment here is to a chambering, not a rifle.

Only you can decide how to proceed, any change will involve a substantial amount of money. The cheapest thing is to do nothing. The next cheapest thing, a pre-fit, lasts for one rifle, and will likely get you a small improvement. The most expensive thing (reamer to match a die & then a barrel) commits you to a chambering with a substantial outlay. But as long as you shoot that chambering, you have "the best."

FWIW

Edit: trying to be clearer: By having a reamer ground to "fit" a commercial die, you incur the cost of the reamer, but do not have the cost of a custom die. If you want to control the chamber down to the last degree, you need both a custom reamer and a custom die. In my opinion, for anything that doesn't have to compete with full-blown 6 PPC benchrest rifles, having a reamer ground to match a commercial bushing die is the sane answer.
 
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BBLs

I have a Krieger cut rifled barrel on my custom varminter in 6 BR. My smith showed me the bore with his scope. Everything had a mirror finish, no machining marks and the rifling was very crisp. After some minimal break in it's first 3 shot group measured .218 with no load development. It since shoots in the low teens. When I clean it I get almost no copper.
This is what you get with a premium barrel.
Ain't a groundhog safe within 500 yards.
I have to agree with the others, you want to make sure you get a smith who builds to B/R standards.
You might want to invest in some Nosler brass and have him use it for reamer dimensions, great stuff.
 
Shilen from Midway

I have a model 12 low profeile varminter 22-250 thaqt I rebarreled with a Shilen 6BR from Midway. Barrel cost $275. I already had the barrel vise and barrel nut wrench. Head space guages cost $25 for go and no go ==> $50.
This barrel was one of the easiest load workups I ever had. It is a 1:8 twist for mid to long range prone and F class. Shooting 108 grain Berger bullets it shoots about .3 MOA. It took less than 20 shots to break in barrel and it now does copper up any more than any of my custom benchrest rifles. Say what you want it is DEFINITELY worth doing and you WILL have a better shooting rifle.

BTW even as a 22-250 this rifle shot very well. I shot it as a factory class once and scored 248 with 12 or 13 X. While this is not as good as my Grizzly based 30BR it's DAMNED GOOD for a $600 factory rifle.
 
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Pick your chamber

Charles E said:
But consider this: If a .22-250 is going to be in your life for a long time, by getting the reamer & die by whichever route, you will have a very good setup, and over the long hall, more accurate rifles. Think this way: a barrel lasts a short time, and is fitted to one action. A reamer and die are tools used to fit any barrel to any action you choose to buy, be it Savage, Remington, or custom. The commitment here is to a chambering, not a rifle.

Only you can decide how to proceed, any change will involve a substantial amount of money. The cheapest thing is to do nothing. The next cheapest thing, a pre-fit, lasts for one rifle, and will likely get you a small improvement. The most expensive thing (reamer to match a die & then a barrel) commits you to a chambering with a substantial outlay. But as long as you shoot that chambering, you have "the best."

FWIW

Edit: trying to be clearer: By having a reamer ground to "fit" a commercial die, you incur the cost of the reamer, but do not have the cost of a custom die. If you want to control the chamber down to the last degree, you need both a custom reamer and a custom die. In my opinion, for anything that doesn't have to compete with full-blown 6 PPC benchrest rifles, having a reamer ground to match a commercial bushing die is the sane answer.
Click to expand...

That's very good advice. Once you've decided on your chamber and have your reamer a good alternative to a full blown custom die is to by a Redding Body Die or a Small Base Die. Send the die with about six fully fireformed rounds to Jim Catstensen (JLC Precision) and you'll get back an excellent die that will re-size or shoulder bump and bushing size your neck.

Lou Baccino
Chino69
 
Thanks for all the replies and advice.

You folks have to realize, I'm not very knowledgeable.

Someone wanted to know how the rifle is shooting now. This is my best 5-shot group-- about 3/8 in. [See attached photo.] I have quite a few groups ranging from about 1/2 to 5/8 inch. I have put about 350 rds through the rifle so far.

I don't have a good lead sled type bench rest-- I am using one of those Outers Varminter metal frame rests. When getting to these small groups, I suspect part of my problem is my own shooting. With my pulse moving the cross-hairs, it does not take much of an error to ruin a possible 3/8 in. group.

I really don't understand too much about the reloading side, but I did purchase a good digital caliper, so now at least I can re-create the OAL of each load for each cartridge. I am hoping to purchase more equipment for my workshop, but for some of it, I really do not understand it very well. I was interested in buying a comparator, but I don't really don't understand much about them. I do look at pictures of them at MidwayUSA.

My rifle is approx. 10 lb. with a synthetic free floated stock and a 6=18 X Bushnell Trophy scope. The scope seems pretty good-- I can see my bullet holes appearing on the paper at 200 yds.

As far as I know, no glass bedding has been done.

I am not sure how much copper if any is in the bore. I use a copper solvent and let it sit in the bore at least an hour each time I clean the gun. Then I finish with a conventional solvent, a brush, and several clean patches. Note: I have no reason to believe my bore is choked with copper. It is hard to see much through a .22 bore -- at least for me -- but I don't believe I have any severe problem with copper.

I sometimes almost think that all this cleaning is screwing up my shooting. Sometimes I think, after I clean, I need to put about 10 or 15 shots through before the barrel settles down again. Is that possible?

My biggest complaint now is inconsistency. I can go out and get some what are -- for me -- very good groups of like 1/2 inch. Then the next time I go -- thinking I have about the same ammo-- I am shooting 1-1/2 inch groups.

Of course, every time you go out, the conditions are different and that could explain it. And some days you shoot better than othersw.

I wanted to get wind flags. I see a set of 6 are available at Sinclair for approx $100. That seems a little rich for my blood at this point. Could I just take a lath and a strip of colored plastic flag and make my own?

Thanks very much to all who have written.
 

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Comparator

As the meplat or tips of bullets are very inconsistent, measuring the length of the round from meplat to base is very unreliable.
The ogive is the spot on the bullet where it begins to taper. This is considered
to be a far more consistent spot on the bullet. A comparator is simply a device you slip on your calipers that measures to that point from the base. They have bushings that can be switched out to the appropriate caliber.
Quite simple to use. Look for the Stoney Point/Lock-N-Load version.
You can also use it to measure the consistency of raw bullets as even the best will vary some.
It looks to me like your 22-250 is shooting fine for field work.
Get a catalog from Sinclair International and a lot of your questions will be answered. Remember consistency rules.
Mark
 
I did the same thing JCummings did with my old model 12. It was not hard to do and I get very nice groups with it at 100 and 200 yards, but I would never try to pass it off as a bench gun. If you don't feel up to rebarreling the rifle yourself Sharpshooter Supply's services cannot be beat.

If you decide you'd like a real bench gun, Fred Moreo (Sharpshooter Supply)is now offering among other things heavy BR stocks, a 2 oz. trigger, Douglas barrels, and can work up a gun for you using the new Savage target action. I'm having him make a lefty for me -- or at least I'm in line for one.
 
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Continue to thank folks for the advice.

Got out to the range today and shot a 3-shot group with the Savage Model 12 of 0.311 in.

Photo attached.

Can the gunsmith install a different trigger mechanism?
 

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Pete ...

I've got a Rifle Basix II (looks like it's now simply called the new and improved SAV-2) for my Savage. The best I could get it down to was about 6 ounces. Although advertised for 4 ounces, I couldn't get it to go there and hold. I recommend the new 2 ounce trigger from Fred Moreo at http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/. Art
 
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