Copper issue -- how much is enough?

M

Montana Pete

Guest
About 150 rds back I purchased a Savage Model 12 in 22-250.

Thanks to some advice on forums and some advice from an experienced friend, I have done a lot of bore cleaning with copper solvents. This has become quite a time-consuming ideal. Fire 30 rds, clean copper for an hour. The sad part-- I am not sure I am even getting very much copper out of the barrel.

What occurred to me is this-- I have some sporter rifles that shoot just fine. I have a 270 that regularly shoots minute-of-angle groups -- with fine-tuned handloads, of course. I don't think I EVER spent a lot of time working copper solvent through these barrels. In fact, I didn't even HAVE any copper solvent until a month ago, and I have been shooting that rifle for 30 years.

Why is this 22-250 so special that I am supposed to spend all this time scrubbing the bore for copper?

I am not even certain that a certain fine film of copper is not good for accuracy. A posting appeared here where a shooter complained, every time he did a major copper scrub, it required about 30 rds before his rifle settled down and started shooting good groups again.

What would happen if I just used good old Hoppe's No. 9 and forgot the "copper solvent" routine?

I am beginning to wonder if I have been sold a pig in a poke.

Any advice appreciated--
 
Pete

Try some Bore Tech Eliminator. I wouldn't lose any sleep if there's a little copper left behind. When you "foul" the barrel it's filling in any irregularities anyhow.

I'd also consider moly or danzac coated bullets. Can't see that it would hurt.

Tony
 
Pete,

Is there any chance that the copper you are seeing from your cleaning gear is from the gear itself (brass jags, bronze brushes)? With the small .224 bore, there is a higher ratio of cleaning medium - bristles, for example - to bore than in something with a bigger hole down it.

I remember a decade or 4 ago when I first used JB, I was concerned that the patches were continuing to show black no matter how much I scrubbed - & then I read the warnings on the tub. Maybe this is a similar issue.

John
 
Pete,
I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about what kind of accuracy you're getting with that barrel. Savage factory barrels are known to be a little rough sometimes, but the accuracy is usually there anyway.

Get yourself some Patch Out or Wipe Out and a bottle of Accelerator to go with them. As Tony C said, you might want to try coating your bullets with Titanium disulfide (sp?) or what is commonly called Danzac. Then after a trip to the range run a couple of patches of Accelerator through the barrel (I don't even use a rod for this just a Patch Worm) and then a patch generously coated with Patch Out ro fill the bore with Wipe Out (your choice). Wait a couple of hours or overnight and pull several patches through the bore. This should remove all the copper. If you are getting deep blue, you might want to do the whole thing again. I have a Cooper that I had to do 4 times before I got it all, but after that it cleaned up with one application. I finish up with a patch of Lock Ease.

Ive used Bore Tech Eliminator and it does OK, but the PO works every time. I use it on everything including my bench rifle.

Good luck,
Rick
 
Factory barrels can Copper foul rapidly when velocities start to exceed 3200fps or so. IMO
Custom barrels foul but to a lesser degree I've seen factory 22-250 barrels so full of copper they were smooth bores nearly 2/3's the way up the bore....:eek:
 
Thank you to all who replied with advice.

Grayfox--

You asked what the rifle is doing. With a little tuning of handloads, I have had my best 5-shot group at 100 yds. of 3/8 inch. I have had a number of groups around a half inch.

I only started shooting at 200 recently, but have had a first-day 5-shot group of approx 1 inch.

I have one of the 10-lb Model 12s. Savage also makes a top-of-the-line version weighing 14 lb. In other words, they all have heavy barrels, but some are heavier than others.

I don't think I am getting the final measure of accuracy. Having fired only 150 rds or so, I have not had time to do a final tuning up on the loads. There's also some question that my benchrest technique and equipment could use some improvement, based on what a more knowledgeable friend tells me. I am using the little Outers "Varminter" portable benchrest device.

The bore product I have been using is Hoppes #9 Benchrest Copper Solvent.
 
After you clean your rifle for copper, try giving it a cleaning with JB Paste before shooting it. Do that for a few cleanings and it should collect copper slower and clean quicker.
 
Getting ALL the copper out of a factory barrel is, or can be, difficult. If a factory rifle shoots 3/8-1/2 inch groups that's pretty good in my experience. Clean the barrel with patches, bore brushes, and the bore cleaner of your choice. One thing I do with factory barrels is to leave the bore wet with Butch's or Hoppe's #9 overnight. Those solvents won't harm the bore and will remove copper. I know that Hoppe's doesn't have much of a following anymore, but from the evidence I can see on patches it removes copper as quickly as many other solvents and doesn't harm the bore. Doing that for two or three days if you have the time will take out most of the copper that's going to mess up accuracy.

Just run a couple of patches wet with solvent through the bore every evening and let the rifle stand muzzle down or use a cleaning support of some kind that will keep the solvent from running back into the action and bedding. The solvent has to have time to work, let it do the work. If there's a lot of copper the first patch through the bore will come out dark blue, you'll be able to see the reduction in color on the patches as you go. OR you can wear yourself and the bore out by scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing until there's no more copper in the bore. :D
 
Larry Elliott said:
I know that Hoppe's doesn't have much of a following anymore, but from the evidence I can see on patches it removes copper as quickly as many other solvents and doesn't harm the bore. Doing that for two or three days if you have the time will take out most of the copper that's going to mess up accuracy.

Just run a couple of patches wet with solvent through the bore every evening and let the rifle stand muzzle down or use a cleaning support of some kind that will keep the solvent from running back into the action and bedding. The solvent has to have time to work, let it do the work.

OR you can wear yourself and the bore out by scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing until there's no more copper in the bore. :D
Click to expand...


Mr. Larry Elliott, in your own words plese tell us how long does it take you to clean a barrel.

Mr. Larry Elliott do you think that a week or two may be long enough or would you rather take a month?

Con
 
On Copper Fouling.

I think it's important to develop loads with a clean barrel ,because one can never predict degrees of copper or nitro fouling. A load developed in a dirty barrel will become finniky when circumstances change. Get it clean and keep it clean and there is a stable platform to work from, also light bullets like 36g Barnes are easily upset by a dirty barrel. They were giving good accuracy out of my 220Swift(better than 1/2" at 4500fps) then things went crazy. At first I thought they were sensitive to wind but the problem turned out to be our old friend copper and nitro fowling. Copper fouling can hide behind nitro fouling and propertiry cleaners like Hoppies can't reach it. I saturiate my rifle bore with automotive thinners to soften up the nitro then give it a scrub with a bronze brush and a patch out. That gets rid of the nitro leaving the copper exposed,then a soak in Sweets solvent for 5 minutes gets rid of the copper. Next I patch out the sweets with more thinners, dry the bore and finish off with Hoppes#9. It doesen't take an hour, more like 10 minutes and it is a labour of love. Reguards Murphy.:cool:
 
You've just got to admire a man that calls cleaning copper out of a bore a "labour of love". :)
 
murphy said:
I think it's important to develop loads with a clean barrel ,because one can never predict degrees of copper or nitro fouling. A load developed in a dirty barrel will become finniky when circumstances change.

Copper fouling can hide behind nitro fouling and propertiry cleaners like Hoppies can't reach it. I saturiate my rifle bore with automotive thinners to soften up the nitro then give it a scrub with a bronze brush and a patch out.

That gets rid of the nitro leaving the copper exposed,then a soak in Sweets solvent for 5 minutes gets rid of the copper. Next I patch out the sweets with more thinners, dry the bore and finish off with Hoppes#9. It doesen't take an hour, more like 10 minutes and it is a labour of love. Reguards Murphy.:cool:
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Mr. Larry Elliott, in your own words please explain to us what can you learn from Mr. Murphy.

Con
 
I'm a Savage lover but.....
The key is to fully get the copper out of the barrel. In my expierience if you can see streaks of copper in the muzzle end of the bore you are not realizing the full accuracy of the rifle. I do not bother doing serious load development on my Savages until coppering is under control.

Greyfox nailed it. I have not found a better copper remover than Patch Out. Might as well spring for the Accelerator that goes with it.

Remove carbon from barrel with bronze brush and any mild solvent you desire. Then use the patch out. You'll probably need to do it twice the first time. Three times can't hurt. You need all the copper gone.

Here comes the miracle;) Buy a can of Lock Ease. Hold the gun chamber up/muzzle down and spray into the chamber until the Lock Ease freely runs out the muzzle.
You can choose to let it sit overnight muzzle down or get directly to business.

Next run (1) loose patch through the bore three times. Yep the same filthy black patch three times. And I do mean a "loose" patch.
Fully clean the chamber. You don't want any Lock Ease there.

Go shoot whatever you like but.
I would suggest a sootier ball type powder and cheapo bullets. Some fun load development. Whatever load you find will probably not be good in the future.
Start low and work up with components that won't break the bank. Lets say fifty rounds. No cleaning.
A small flaslight in the muzzle will tell you if your getting copper. Unless somethings drastically wrong with the barrel you should not see any substantial copper if any at all.

Take it home and use some Patch Out on it with nothing stronger than a nylon brush. You'll likely find a small amount of blue from the throat area.

You'll notice the patches will show a little black/grey long after the bulk of the carbon is gone. Thats the Lock Ease. You can try and swab it all out or leave it. It will not greatly effect your loads at this point but might help a tad in the second session. Chances are very good you'll not have abnormal coppering in that tube again until the throat starts burning.

This is by far the easiest way to run in a Savage tube I've found. Works great on old milsurps too.
I've been amazed at how quickly a barrel will stop coppering if you can just prevent it for a short time and allow the bullets to smooth it up instead of covering the rough spots with more copper.
 
"The key is to fully get the copper out of the barrel. In my expierience if you can see streaks of copper in the muzzle end of the bore you are not realizing the full accuracy of the rifle."

I am going to say that I don't fully agree with the above statement. My experience is anicdotal but I have had several barrels that wouldn't shoot any better after a good cleaning than they would after 50 rounds.
Ted
 
Now make or buy a good set of wind flags and use them every time you shoot.

Next find some one with a good Benchrest 6 PPC rifle and fire a few rounds thru it.:eek:

You found the right place to ask questions......

Glenn:D
 
hecksf said:
"The key is to fully get the copper out of the barrel. In my expierience if you can see streaks of copper in the muzzle end of the bore you are not realizing the full accuracy of the rifle."

I am going to say that I don't fully agree with the above statement. My experience is anicdotal but I have had several barrels that wouldn't shoot any better after a good cleaning than they would after 50 rounds.
Ted
Click to expand...

Actually I fully agree with you. My guns always seem to shoot better well fouled. I develope loads with a fouled barrel hence they are more tuned for a fouled barrel.

To get to the point where one can do this with a copper collecting barrel the first step is to remove all the copper and get it broke in correctly.
The condition of the fouling must be consistent. If the tube is steadily collecting copper or in some cases carbon accuracy will not be consistent.

Finding the correct powder and charge weight is paramount. For instance my Shilen 6BR will bughole 95 Bergers at 200 yds with just over 32 gns of Varget (a pretty hot load IMO) in a fouled barrel but only for 5-6 rds before it begins to open up.
Varget burns real clean up there. My tube does not appreciate it. Drop down to 29.8- 30.0 gns ( medium load)and it will maintain accuracy much better.

Its all about bore condition, neck tension and nodes. Then find the correct primer.
 
I'm the guy who started this thread. I have been continuing to scrub the gun with various products to get rid of the copper.

Today I got some Outers foam product and pressure sprayed the foam through the bore. Following the instructions, I waited half an hour and swabbed out the bore with a clean, dry patch. Several, actually.

The directions on the can said that copper would be revealed when the patches came out green.

Well, they didn't. I strongly suspect I have been scrubbing away for copper that isn't there.

I think I got a little too carried away, fearing this copper contamination.

I want to thank everyone who wrote in-- there's great data here for noobs like me.

MP
 
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