Chamber and Reamer

M

MIT

Guest
I just finished up a .338 Edge with a new PTG reamer (.100) freebore . I chambered a round to see where the seating depth was at. Checking the bullet I noticed unusual markes on the sides of the bullet. Knowing I had too throat this barrel I also got a .338 throater. I ran the throater in .100 and checked it again, I could not touch the lands, and the markes on the side of the bullet getting worse. I came to the conclusion the bullet was wedgeing in the throat and not getting to the lands. I took a barrel stub and ran the reamer in and then the throater parted it off so I just had the throater dimension, I could not get the bullet to push through ! I called Dave Kiff and he said he had had another person call that had the same trouble and that Krieger had changed their steel and that I needed to run the reamer back in again because of spring back of the barrel . I since sent the reamers back and Dave told me they both were within tolerances. Has anyone else ever heard of this, I have chambered a lot of barrels and never had this problem.
Sierra .338 - 300 gr SMK - Dia .3382 , Reamer and throater( throat) Dia.3385 according to drawing
 
I have a 6.5-284 reamer that Kiff made for me. The freebore section is so tight that some of the bullets- the long shank ones- touch the freebore all the way around before getting to the lands. I feel like it is too small but sounds like Dave is gonna say it is within tolerances?

I am going to cut another chamber with it next week and see if it works any different on a Shilen barrel. It is frustrating.
 
We're talking fractions of a thou here...... and "unusual markes" on the bullet.

Is there any chance that there's a tiny burr at the mouth of the freebore area? Is it worth a rub with some 600 on a dowel?

I dislike these aspersions being cast on Kiff.

al
 
Do you have a bore scope or know someone that does? You should be able to see what's going on in the throat. Have you checked to see if you have any chip weld on the reamer before you get to final depth? I always stop before I cut to final depth and check. An easy way is to run a copper penny along the flute or use a loupe. Every now and then I'll get a barrel that for some reason wants to chip weld bad. It's hard to get a good suface finish. What does the rest of the chamber look like? Or you could do a chamber cast and mic it, If you think it's out of spec. Every reamer I have got from Dave is TIP TOP. Boe
 
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Barrel spring back from what? If your throating after reaming just how much force are you putting on a barrel that it springs back?

The angle of the ogive in relation with the angle of the reamer, as well as the diameter of each, determine where contact is made. If your looking for 4 grooves made by the lands you may not find it. The throater may be .3385" but ahead of it where the 1`30' angle starts, it will cut from .3385" to not cutting at all. From the throater pilot end, the lands start getting cut larger and larger. At a certain point the lands are completely cut BUT at that same point, the barrel bore diameter is still smaller than the bullet diameter. Remember the bullet is bigger than your barrel. If your bullet ogive is more than 1`30' at that diameter, you will see a circle around the bullet not 4 land marks.

Is this what you are into?
 
No burs on reamer have a borescope and yes you can see copper from bullet jacket in the throat where the bullet is wedging the sides , rest of the chamber is fine, and the chamber runout was .0002 Even if I seat a bullet way down in the case it still stickes in the chamber !
I must say Dave kiff( PTG) has been very helpful figuring this out.
 
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I wonder if would be the same with another bullet type/manufacturer?
 
MIT, I seriously doubt the reamer is the problem here. Measure the OD on the freebore section on the reamer, and if that measures OK the reamer won't be the problem. It may be something else, but you very well might be experiencing something I frequently see to one degree or another, especially in canted land barrels. Go in with your long-reach indicator and see if the free-bore section of the throat is smooth. My guess is it's not, which means you have experienced reamer chatter.

It's amazing how much reamer flex can happen in these chambers, and it's especially prone to do this in canted land barrels (it can do it in conventional land barrels also, but not nearly as readily). It will do it no matter how true you have the bore dialed in, how well-fitted the reamer bushing is in the bore, how carefully you feed the reamer in, or how big and expensive your lathe is. Carbide reamers are much stiffer and won't do it as bad, but most reamers are HSS and they will definitely do it!

I started seeing this unexplained reamer chatter phenomenon as soon as I started using canted land barrels quite a few years ago. I called the barrel maker on it a number of times, but he told me I was the only guy in the country he knew of who had seen this. I told him maybe I was the only guy who consistently measures for this all the way through the chambering process, but I see it to this day on about every canted land barrel I chamber. I still use and like canted land barrels, but I just know to be extra careful when chambering them.

I often demonstrate this in my classes (and will be showing this in-depth in an upcoming "Advanced Chambering" DVD) - I'll tell the students exactly when the chatter will start. I will be chambering along and the indicator shows absolutely no chatter whatsoever anywhere in the chamber. When the reamer is far enough in to start cutting the throat, we will then instantly be able to measure chatter through the whole length of the chamber. In every single case, when I can feel the reamer start to cut the throat, I'll tell them we'll now put the indicator in and see what happens - sure enough, we can now measure chatter beginning, not only in the throat area, but in the entire chamber. Usually its very minor and if you didn’t measure for it you’d never know anything was going on, but it’s there and can get worse if you don’t catch it in time.

Then I show them the method I now use to prevent this as much as possible - simply prebore the lands away clear to the end of the neck while you are pre-drilling and boring the body of the chamber. This allows the reamer to be completely seated (and now fully supported) before it finally gets to the throat area as it comes to full depth. When the reamer is fully supported and cutting completely before it finally picks up the throat way at the end, this really minimizes chatter problems.

Now if you have to cut a longer throat with a separate throating reamer after you've done using the main chambering reamer, you really have to be careful the chatter doesn't get away from you, since the body of the throater is completely unsupported. Both the throater and the chamber reamer will benefit by using the wax-paper wrap trick since this dampens the flex somewhat and will help keep you out of trouble.

I've tried quite a few things over the years trying to figure out what causes this and how to prevent it. In my opinion, what happens is the conventional land barrels have straight vertical sides on the lands, so when the straight vertical flutes on the reamer cuts into them, they meet square and there is no side pressure on the reamer flutes so they cut very nicely. But in canted land barrels, the lands are sloped at a pretty good angle, so the flutes of the reamer want to ride up the lands instead of cutting straight into them. Most of the canted land barrels are an odd number like 5 land/groove, so each time a reamer flute tries to ride up a land, it pushes away from that land making the opposing flutes dig into the grooves between the opposite lands (you can usually see this in a borescope if you know what to look for). Measure it and you'll see that the freebore is now 5-sided and not round!

This can happen severely enough that the effective diameter of the freebore section in the throat (the tops of the chatter) is smaller than the reamer itself. The reamer just flexes up and down in these grooves and flexes sideways just enough to form "lands" which is what you're measuring with your indicator. I've often seen it (and measured it) where the reamer chatter in the throat made the effective freebore smaller than the bullet diameter like you've seen here.

Check it out and see if maybe this is what you're experiencing. Hope this helps!

Gordy Gritters
www.ExtremeAccuracyInstitute.com
 
Gordy, I must admit your finding in this surprised me. When prebored up to the shoulder the reamer always cuts at a 45` at the case mouth smaller than bore diameter, this depth of cut is significant. However, as you already know and pointed it out here, the total length of lands being cut at the same time is comparable. Perhaps sheared would be a better term would it not? Related to your findings also, when a chamber appears as if it is about to start chattering a bit, it already has and that is why you think you know it will start. Often this is right around the time the throat starts getting cut ... suspicious. Are you suggesting that if you prebore up to the case mouth the chatter has less time to get worse the further you go along? This certianly makes sense to me and appears to be a better method than preboring up to the shoulder.

Thanks for the info Gordy, I will definately modify my prebore method.
 
Gordy,
I have a couple of 5R style barrels that have been chambered by a fellow that pushes his reamers with a dead center mounted on the tool post, of a rather substantial lathe. Of course he indicates it into position, and I must say that the brass from the several barrels that he has done for me (with my own reamer) interchanges without any problems, and measures quite uniformly at the back. Having said all of that, do you think that using such a setup would reduce the tendency for the kind of chatter that you have described?
Boyd
 
PEI Rob,
I prebore up to the shoulder on all barrels, but on canted land barrels I also prebore the lands away up to the end of the neck (stop a few thousandths short to keep yourself out of trouble). On long freebore chambers, I also go in and very carefully bore the lands themselves in the freebore section mostly away, but not completely since I don't want to get into the grooves and cut too much away (I even hesitate to even mention this part here since it is so easy to get into trouble doing that).

I also don't pre-drill the chambers quite as deep on canted land barrels - usually stop about .200-.300" short depending on the chamber and the length of the freebore. This allows me to get the reamer cutting deep enough to be completely supported before the throat starts to cut way at the end.

What works best is to keep the throat part of the reamer from starting to cut anything until the reamer is in far enough for the neck and shoulder to be cutting completely. If the lands start getting cut while part of the reamer (the neck/shoulder area) is not cutting yet, then that part of the reamer is not supported and is much more easily flexed when the lands start to cut. So keep from cutting the throat until as late in the process as possible and the resulting chance for chatter is greatly minimized.



Boyd,
That is pretty much how I do it too. I've tried several different reamer-holders and even different lathes in other shops I've gone to do classes, and I've found the same thing no matter what. Most of the time the 5R or canted land barrels will come out pretty good when chambered with normal methods, and I'm sure not knocking them at all since I use them a lot.

Even though you can usually measure a little bit of chatter before you're done, it is usually so slight that it is not visible, but is detectable with a good test indicator. But it's there and I don't like that! As long as it stays very minimal, you'll be fine, but man if it starts to get away from you, look out. If you are constantly checking for this the whole time you're chambering, you'll immediately know if it starts to get worse and can do something about it before it is too late. This can happen more often than most people realize - just go into your finished chambers and measure in the body, the neck, and the freebore section of the throat while the barrel is still chucked up true and you'll immediately know if there is anything going on.

Gordy Gritters
www.ExtremeAccuracyInstitute.com
 
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Gordy,

Have you tried the use of a carbide reamer to reduce or eliminate this chatter? My thinking is that it should be significantly more rigid.

John Whidden
 
John, that is exactly right. I have done a few canted-land barrels using carbide reamers, and the chatter is barely detectable in those.

Remember that the throat starts to cut anywhere from .100" to .400" or more before the neck gets there and starts to cut since the throat extends quite a ways ahead of the freebore. This is where the problem begins - while the thinnest part of the reamer is still unsupported, so it is very easily flexed. The carbide reamers are so much stiffer that they really do seem to help here.

One other comment on what PEI Rob mentioned earlier. He is right in that the chatter does often start before you can even feel it since the throat is such a small area. But it definitely does affect the whole reamer when it starts to chatter when it starts cutting the lands.

On the times I was talking about in my classes when I would predict in advance the exact point the chatter would start, I was stopping and measuring every .050" or so, and borescoping each cut also. Then when we could see the throat just starting to cut (way before the freebore or the neck got there), sure enough we could detect the chatter starting at the same time. I have seen this happen hundreds of times now over quite a few years I have been working with this issue, and the exact time I see the throat start to cut is when the chatter starts to show. You can get chatter other times and for other reasons, but this is a constant that I can predict and see almost every time.

I just wanted to let others know what I've found and hopefully help them out with this if they experience this issue when chambering canted land barrels. These barrels have a lot going for them and I use them a lot, but I sure approach how I chamber them differently than I used to. I also buy a lot of reamers from Dave Kiff and don't want him getting blamed for something that he's not responsible for. I did call him earlier this week to explain this all to him, so he will be able to help his customers if they run into this problem.

Gordy Gritters
www.ExtremeAccuracyInstitute.com
 
The reamer may actually be the problem??

I started seeing this unexplained reamer chatter phenomenon as soon as I started using canted land barrels quite a few years ago.
www.ExtremeAccuracyInstitute.com

A LH reamer may fix this issue if its caused by the flank of the land being blunt. In addition to that I think the odd # land configuration is also adding to the problem because directly across from the land is a groove ie less support for the pilot. with an even # land configuration you have equal support for the pilot. We may have to have a pilot that rides in the groove for 5c type barrels.
Maybe even a 5 flute reamer so you hit them all at the same time.

Just my thoughts
 
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