Can You Shoot Groups Or Just Score???

A

agw

Guest
Now the title was just to "get ya started"
We shoot groups down here in the DEEP SOUTH. Group shooting gets a lot of "bad" press because "no one shoots group matches". Well thats not exactly true. ARG shoots Groups. I have been keepin the "score" for our club and am amaized as to the numbers.What these numbers are the best twelve targets shot at a santioned MATCH. We have had 6 matches. 4 targerts each (total 24) Each "card/target" has 5 bulls and we must shoot 5 shots into each. AND YES WE HAVE MOVING BACKERS!!!!
The top 3 shooters are all under .2890 for there AGG and ALL 13 are agging under .5000
All the score shooters will say "but we get a free shot" because group shooters can "chase" there first shot. I agree BUT THEN you have to "hold off and find that same hole with out a aiming point. Thing of the ARA target it has no "amming" point in the center.
Just wanted to get the "worlds" oppinion on OUR GAME

22ARG.com
ARG SCORE LINE
ACE OF ACES BEST TWELVE TARGETS
20-Apr-08
AVERAGE
NAME T1 T2 T3 T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 T10 T11 T12

Hugh Ogle 0.2148 0.2238 0.2268 0.2336 0.2352 0.2394 0.2528 0.2542 0.2748 0.2756 0.2802 0.3520 AGG 0.25527
Don Geraci 0.2064 0.2366 0.2430 0.2738 0.2786 0.2792 0.2868 0.2928 0.2966 0.3040 0.3286 0.3304 AGG 0.27973
Cern Addison 0.2500 0.2556 0.2636 0.2768 0.2786 0.2836 0.2962 0.2968 0.3074 0.3126 0.3180 0.3218 AGG 0.28842
Rick Mueller 0.2168 0.2270 0.3254 0.3276 0.3294 0.3424 0.3432 0.3460 0.3490 0.3518 0.3562 0.3732 AGG 0.32400
Herb Hill 0.2798 0.2916 0.2982 0.3090 0.3250 0.3316 0.3350 0.3384 0.3542 0.3620 0.3630 0.4220 AGG 0.33415
Andre' Granier 0.2526 0.3079 0.3218 0.3254 0.3360 0.3418 0.3432 0.3478 0.3530 0.3544 0.3592 0.3758 AGG 0.33491
Paul Hatrel 0.3036 0.3294 0.3350 0.3356 0.3368 0.3488 0.3574 0.3866 0.3894 0.3902 0.397 0.4042 AGG 0.35950
Mark McPHALL 0.2798 0.3176 0.3244 0.3410 0.3442 0.3468 0.3700 0.3932 0.4024 0.4042 0.4144 0.4150 AGG 0.36275
Joe Bougard 0.2796 0.2846 0.3142 0.3380 0.3716 0.3980 0.4000 0.5388 AGG 0.36560
T.J. Hatrel 0.3696 0.3726 0.3840 0.3902 0.3922 0.4036 0.4044 0.4192 0.4250 0.4324 0.4618 0.4944 AGG 0.41245 16 Year Old
Paul Guy 0.4304 0.4516 0.4654 0.4780 AGG 0.45635
Bruce Forschein 0.3982 0.4842 0.6044 0.6140 0.4388 0.2780 0.4196 0.4664 AGG 0.46295
Carl Hill 0.3314 0.4484 0.5486 0.6494 AGG 0.49445
Thanks for lookin
Paul
 
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Question . . .

Seems you are calling group sizes to the 4th decimal point. Are you using a Sweeny reticule rule or some new technology? To get reasonable accuracy to 3 decimal points, we have found you should take three measurements, and then average the 3. Are you doing that to get the 4th decimal point?

4 decimal point measurements are used in NBRSA for aggregates of five or more 5 shot groups. I would be interested to know how you are getting group measurements with that level of accuracy on single 5 shot groups.

Joe Haller
 
Hey Hugh Ogle, look at you on the top of that list! Way to go!
We miss ya.
Steve
 
Measurements

are to 3 decimal points making the 4th decimal the last significant figure however, two shooters were tied for aggregate unless the 5th decimal was added. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on which side of the dceimal you ended up) that is no longer the case. The calipers used has a 4th decimal but it is always 0 or 5 so it really isn't a significant figure.
 
Hey that there Ogle fellow learned all his rifle proficiency up here in the north, don't let that southern drawl fool you.
Nice job Hugh.
 
Joe

As Rick was trying to explain when we measure our groups we only have one person measure all the targets. there for our measurements ARE subjective to any other person measuring the targets. BUT at a local monthly match we feel the "Integtiry" of our measurements will not be qusetioned. We as a RULE do have a protest system and any potential recordes will be remeasured by two other shooters. When the Nationals come around we have had an "Indepentent" judge measuring targets.(non-compedeter)

As to the 5th descimal that is what happens when you use excell and have a tye. There was a time about three matches back that Hugh & Don (our top two shooters) were tyed with .3004, thats twelve targert shot randomly and posted by myself. HOW could they be tyed but it happaned. So I rechecked the math by hand , when it was the same I used EXCELL to take the decimal to the next didget. all that an AGG is an avarge of what ever numbers we tell the calculator. By taking it to the 5th decimal, NO MO TYE

Thanks
Paul
 
Tin,Renegade & Steve

We are all fortionet to shoot with a Gentelman like Hugh. BUT THAT PURPLE GUN GOT TO GO!!!!!!! Some one twist that Tuner when he aint lookin. And for all you IR 50/50 guys He shoots 250s also. But will share what he knows with the "lesser" folk.

Paul
 
i wish the guys at our local range would do some grouping matches. Right now the only rimfire match i got is 50br, bullseye 25 targets 2 rds. Fun game but i would enjoy doing some group shooting. I think the guys i shoot with forgot HOW to shoot a group. You get so used to one shot per bullseye. If you shoot one .you DQ that target
 
Paul,


Hugh is a true gentleman. I'ld be willing to bet he doesn't share info with "lesser folk", but, he's more than willing to help those with "lesser experience".;) When you come to a match where Hugh is shooting be sure to bring your
"A" game and good ammo.

Say hi to him from all of us up here.

Ken
 
I always shoot for score----it only counts if you hit the middle of the target in real life...
 
I shoot groups with ARG and was wondering? If on a score target a bullet was shot at the 3 o'clock position and the 9 o'clock position at their widest points and both still scoring a 10 ring, What would the size of the group be when measured center to center? Say .500, or .400, or .300 group size. For argument sake lets say.400 would be that group size, then if I have a gun that shoots consistant .400 in group shooting I have a gun that shoots 250's?
I understand wind and conditions play a part but in group shooting I have to read those conditions properly 5 times in order to get a good group and in score you only have to read those conditions only once for each target. I am not saying group shooting is harder than score shooting but pointing out they each have their own set of difficulties to overcome in order to score well in a match. Andre'
 
Andre':

If I understand your question, this graphic will probably answer it.

Joe Haller

ARA-USBR-IR.jpg
 
Get by

You could get by with a slightly larger group, when you score best edge on everything but the ARA target, as they score worst edge.
 
We don't live in a perfict world

Joe
I see your point BUT I do not think we have ever posted any
"perfic cards" IR 50/50 record set by Deni Antonius on 09-12-07 was a 250-24 thats off there web sight. Acording to your post Hugh Ogal, twelve best would have agged him 10, 2500 ARA cards. Now for the real world. I would be extatic just to shoot a 250 or 2500 on any day. to shoot a center to center group on an IR 50/50 target you can have a gun that will shoot .469
I get that number from taking the 10 ring measurment .245 and adding .112 to each side. AM I doing the Math Wrong???

Paul
 
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Paul,

The IR 50/50 ten ring is .250 add the plug diameter of .224 and total group shoud be .474, that's if I did my math right. Most shooters wnat a rifle that aggs at least .250 for most any score shooting, in the .1's is better. Of course five aggs or twenty five 10's in a row are another thing.

Ken
 
Paul, I think you explination is closer to what I was thinking. so my figure would be .469 groups center to center for a rough comparison. Andre'
 
Not answering Question

Can you shoot GROUPS
Asked another way
WHAT IS HARDER
I have done both and cant seem to do eather well

Paul
 
Well neither is easy, but you'd probably have to give a slight nod to having to adjust your gear to hit a specific spot every time over 20-30 minutes as many as 6 cards 25 shots each. You're comparing 5 shot strings to 25 shot strings and don't get me wrong, I love and shoot 100-200yd group shooting, I'd love to shoot some .22 group, just has'nt seem to have caught on around here.
 
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