Buying older kegs of powder, safe or not safe????

T

tillroot1

Member
I am just looking for opinions, I have a chance to buy 2 kegs of powder, a 50 pounder and a 100 pounder, they are unopened and have been stored in a basement for a good number of years, the powder is H4831 and appears to be surplus. Any of you guys have experience and opinions please ? Thanks, Ron Tilley
 
If it was stored cool/dry it should be good to go. I'm still using from a 100 lber I purchased in the early 70's.
 
I too have powder 30-40yrs old. Zero issues.

Of course common sense applies, it must pour and slide and look like new powder. If clumps or discolors it's fertilizer.

al
 
Stability

If my memory serves correct either the IMR or H 4831 are single based powders. They seem to be very stable and stay in good condition for a very long time. It's the double based powders that contain nitro glycering that seems to become fertilizer more quickly. So if it looks like a batch of powder that is new when viewed side by side then I would have no hesitation in using it.

Andy.
 
Not to comment on the stability, but all the 4831s were single base. The old military surplus powder has a different burn rate from the "new" old 4831. BTW.
 
I have and still occasionally use some 4831 I bought in 1955. Still chronos good and smells normal.

A few years ago AR magazine did an article on a test Hercules ran at the time of some Hercules Unique they made in the '20's and stored it loose in carboys, loose, in weater. They take (took) some out, dried it and tested it. It was about as effective as when new.

Not saying to be careless with powder, but most powders stored properly will last for decades. Go by texture, smell and container condition.

With 150 pounds of 4831 you could start your own war!!
 
On the other hand, I had two 1 lb metal cans of IMR-4198 (not that old) that showed the "red dust" syndrome and had no ether smell. The cans were in excellent shape & did not appear to be old, but I can't be sure of the previous storage conditions.

I even tried loading some, but it definitely wasn't the same as a new can. The powder seems to be doing fine after being spread over the back lawn.

Regards, Ron
 
Dude!!! What if your lawnmower sets it off?

!!!

Sorry, I'm venting a little :)

I'm a Hunter Ed instructor and over the last couple years it's become painfully apparent that people have this deep seated fear of gunpowder and "explosives" never realizing that the gasoline they pump into their cars every day is far more dangerous than gunpowder. So I've incorporated the idea of "liquid gunpowder" into my classes to put it into perspective.

Completely irrelevant to your good post Ron ;)

LOL

al
 
Al, I am wondering if you still shoot at Portland at the 600 yard matches, and how its going? I had a lot of fun that time I came up there and shot with you guys. Ron Tilley
 
gun powder does not rust...containers do. the rust can be removed with a magnet. when done , then decide if the powder is any good.....no smell..clumping, not pouring smothly.
i know i'm a heritic.
mike in co
RJM said:
On the other hand, I had two 1 lb metal cans of IMR-4198 (not that old) that showed the "red dust" syndrome and had no ether smell. The cans were in excellent shape & did not appear to be old, but I can't be sure of the previous storage conditions.

I even tried loading some, but it definitely wasn't the same as a new can. The powder seems to be doing fine after being spread over the back lawn.

Regards, Ron
Click to expand...
 
propellant v explosives

Although I am not an organic chemist I did have a friend who is explain the differences between propellants and explosives. Propellants just burn at times very rapidly which resemble an explosion. Ie firing a rifle. Burning something is a redox reaction where something is reduced by oxygen to its lowest stable form.

Explosives which you need an explosives licence to purchase are the breaking of covalent bonds which liberates the energy holding the molecules together. Incorrectly stored explosives are dangerous and can become unstable. Although somkeless propellant can break down and become unusable their not in the same league as unstable explosives.
Andy
 
tillroot1 said:
Al, I am wondering if you still shoot at Portland at the 600 yard matches, and how its going? I had a lot of fun that time I came up there and shot with you guys. Ron Tilley
Click to expand...

Well, no.... it's like deja vu all over again. First time I got set up to shoot the Tri-County matches they were doing HBR so I set up a hunter gun and they quit holding matches. This year I got my 6X47 all tuned up plus I've now got a 300WSM Heavy and a big 338. And they quit holding matches :) they still have informal shoots, belly shoots and such but I'm kinda' fish-out-of-water in that sort of venue.

So now I'm converting my 6X47 back to 6PPC and will probably start up with the Tacoma club when time allows. Meantime I hear there's some 600-1000 stuff starting up in the Tri-Cities (Pasco/Kennewick/Richland WA) and if it goes to benchrest I'll drive out there. As of yet it's all F-Class and such.

Yeahhh, I enjoyed the class of people we got at the 600yd BR matches even though as you remember I kinda' held up the show with my one gun :)

And Lynn calls hisself waterboy... if only he knew!

LOL

al
 
1 of 3 cans of IMR4895 went bad-Unknow if the same lot numbers.

Go by smell and look for red rust. Some 4831 that was given to me & IMR 4895 i purchased new, both went bad.
IMR4895_20090928_1.jpg
IMR4895_20090928_2.jpg
 
mike in co said:
gun powder does not rust...containers do. the rust can be removed with a magnet. when done , then decide if the powder is any good.....no smell..clumping, not pouring smothly.
i know i'm a heritic.
mike in co
Click to expand...

Mike,
You are correct that powder does not "rust". However it does decompose to a red-brown material liberating acid which can corrode a metal can.

You are not correct that rust can be removed with a magnet. FeO2 is non-magnetic, and any particles that do stick to a magnet are due to metallic iron in the particles, not the red rust.

The IMR-4198 that went bad on me had a fine red brown dust in it and had the "acid" smell, not the normal ether smell. The metal cans were not corroded inside or out, so the red dust was not rust. I think the decomposition had just started & was not too far along.

When I tried it in fire forming some 30BR, the loads did not perform anything like the same loads with "good" 4198, really variable. I also didn't want to risk the fine dust corroding my Culver powder measure, so I trashed the 2 lbs of powder.

In 45 yrs of reloading, I've not seen this before.

Regards, Ron
 
RJM said:
Mike,
You are correct that powder does not "rust". However it does decompose to a red-brown material liberating acid which can corrode a metal can.

You are not correct that rust can be removed with a magnet. FeO2 is non-magnetic, and any particles that do stick to a magnet are due to metallic iron in the particles, not the red rust.

The IMR-4198 that went bad on me had a fine red brown dust in it and had the "acid" smell, not the normal ether smell. The metal cans were not corroded inside or out, so the red dust was not rust. I think the decomposition had just started & was not too far along.

When I tried it in fire forming some 30BR, the loads did not perform anything like the same loads with "good" 4198, really variable. I also didn't want to risk the fine dust corroding my Culver powder measure, so I trashed the 2 lbs of powder.

In 45 yrs of reloading, I've not seen this before.

Regards, Ron
Click to expand...

If you see "red dust" in any powder, it is fertilizer, plain and simple. Powder is a very simple product. it is either ood or bad. And if there is EVER any question, use it to fertilize your yard. Not worth the questions or headaches. there is no gray area when it comes to powder

David
 
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