Brass; changing dimensions

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overbore

Guest
I am re-loading once fired 308 brass by cleaning, lubing, resizing in Dillon carbide, re-priming etc. My procedure is to do large lots of one operation which means that after resizing, the brass may sit for 60 days before loading with powder and bullets. The stage is now properly set--. I just noticed that after a 60 day break, the brass has sprung back. Any inputs on how much would be normal? I must resize again as all are case gage checked as part of qc and the case gage fit is far too tight:confused::confused: for reliable gas gun ops. Many thanks, Overbore
 
I've noticed that case necks seem to 'relax' if they've been sized and allowed to sit unloaded for a time. The only time this has ever caused problems was with a Lee collet die where the cases were sized after being used on a prairie dog shoot, then allowed to sit unloaded until the next spring. Bullets would drop right through the necks onto the powder. I've never experienced this problem with normal FL or NS dies when the same amount of time intervened between sizing and loading.

It seems that when a bullet is seated that the case necks don't relax for some reason which I can't understand. In fact I've noticed that case necks seem to 'shrink' around the bullets some since if I've had to pull bullets it really requires some effort if the bullets have been seated for 30-60 days or longer although seating effort was very low. Old (many years) loaded ammunition will tend to produce split necks on firing too while cases of the same age work fine.

Okay I'll shut up. :eek:
 
I find this hard to understand. If this were so, why don't the bullets fall out one the loaded rounds?

Concho Bill
 
Bill, that's what bewilders me. I've never experienced necks that were sized with a normal FL or NS die that got noticably looser on standing for even 6 mo or a year - at least loose enough to not hold onto a bullet. With the Lee Collet dies I think that the wrinkles that the die puts in the neck causes the problem if they're allowed to sit without bullets seated pretty soon after sizing.

I've never experienced cases getting larger in length or diameter so that they wouldn't fit in a chamber after sizing though. I have '06 cases that have sat empty and FL sized several years that chamber easily in my M1 too.
 
With the Lee Collet dies I [I said:
think[/I] that the wrinkles that the die puts in the neck causes the problem if they're allowed to sit without bullets seated pretty soon after sizing. QUOTE]

Interesting. This statement caught my eye. Bill Wynne is an engineer. Perhaps he can expand on it.

There is a term called molecular motion. It occurs in solids, just as it does in liquids and gases. Just slower in solids, fastest in gases. Molecular motion is always occuring, except at absolute zero temperature.

I would think molecular motion might be less consistent with the collet die (wrinkles), than with the full encompassing die.

What are your thoughts?

longshooter
 
Here's what I've found . . . . . .

If your bullets don't stay tight, it's because the brass at the neck is too hard from being reloaded repeatedly (and not getting annealed when required). When brass gets too hard, it loses its elastic ability to grip the bullet. This never happens with factory ammo.

If your bullets get tighter, it's because of electrolysis caused by connecting different types of metal together. This happens with factory ammo or handloads.

- Innovative
 
Let me set the record straight. I am not an engineer, however, I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.:)

Longshooter, I will take that as a compliment. I sometimes try to think like one.

Overbore, Could it be that the brass that you set aside for 60 days was too loose when you first resized it and you didn't try it at the time? I have never seen this problem but some others may have.

Concho Bill
 
I am re-loading once fired 308 brass by cleaning, lubing, resizing in Dillon carbide, re-priming etc. My procedure is to do large lots of one operation which means that after resizing, the brass may sit for 60 days before loading with powder and bullets. The stage is now properly set--. I just noticed that after a 60 day break, the brass has sprung back. Any inputs on how much would be normal? I must resize again as all are case gage checked as part of qc and the case gage fit is far too tight:confused::confused: for reliable gas gun ops. Many thanks, Overbore


IMO you've fallen into the trap of loading your gasser like a BR rifle ;)

YES brass springs back over time. I've always found the effect to be under a half-thou on the necks and under a thousandth OAL to the shoulder. I learned long ago that when I finish with a block of brass and load it to set aside for "throwaway varmint rounds" I first have to cram the shoulders back an extra thou or else I risk having a round which won't chamber at a later date.


Many times before I leave my home-range for the evening I'll load up a block of loads to use for my next morning baseline...... sometimes they'll be very tight the next day. I use a fairly large stack of die shims for this reason, I like to be able to size to the half-thou just so that I can set aside some rounds and not fight them the next time out. I size my end-of-the-day loaded rounds just a little shorter than what I've been shooting all day. When I come back in the morning my gun will be cold (tighter) and my rounds will have grown longer......and my fit will be right where I want it.

al
 
I've had loaded match rounds which had been test chambered (I always test chamber rounds with no firing pin) that didn't chamber at all 2 weeks later. There was no smashing the bolt down, they weren't going, any of em.

I won't quote dimensions but Al's numbers would make sense and I'm sure he's measured this. I have not, I just know it happens. I have several dies for sizing my cases and have to change dies depending upon the age of the brass. When I use the wrong die, the cases will chamber but may not work after they've been left to sit a while. After one episode I had this year, I RE-test chamber all my rounds before going to a match. (with firing pin removed of course). Just because they fit before doesn't mean they'll fit now.

This would be more of an issue with a die that doesn't size much beyond the chamber dimensions. When pushing shoulders back .0015 or .002 and doing a .002 diameter resize, you'll never see this problem. It's when you try to get a little too close that this can bite you. If your standard off the shelf dies don't work in your chamber, either get the chamber sanded out a little bit, or get another die. Certainly in a gas gun, you don't need, nor want to have cases that close.
 
I can see how neck turned cases (those that are paper thin) could experience problems with noticeable lack of bullet tension over time.

However, has anyone experienced this "shrinking necks" symptom on brass that has not been neck turned?

- Innovative
 
Larry, I don't think it's a matter of "shrinking". When you say shrink, it's as if you imply the size must always get smaller.

I would say that this is a phenomenon where the metal wants to return to it's last state. Example, size a neck with a neck bushing and load it, yes, the neck will grow (VERY slighly) over time.

Or, size with a die and then expand. The neck will then attempt to shrink (back to where it last was) and while its the same thing happening, the size change will be in the opposite direction.

I'd guess that the amount of change varies with how many times the brass has been sized and how long since the last anneal.

I'd also use a term of "Relax", meaning, the brass does get sized, but, kinda moves over time very very slighty.
 
4Mesh ...............

I understand the "memory" of stretched brass returning to near previous size, but I've never seen this problem happen to cases that are at the proper softness, unless the necks were turned. Have you ever seen this happen to good 308 cases that are not turned?

- Innovative
 
Great inputs!

Gentlemen,

With all of years of handloading experiences you collectively have, the general drift of your collective answers is that "stuff happens" so I should slow down and check time-dimensions and, to add a step log the dates and dimensions. Since my GI brass was probably fired in max dimension machine guns, the initial significant case stretching is a given. In this brass, no neck turning as this lot is not for bench rest use but as one poster commented, what fit in a case chamber gage may not "go" later. More data for the next generation--.

One minor correction. 'Galvanic corrosion' does happen with all dissimilar metals in direct contact; accelerated in the presence of a conductor ( moisture) and is a factor in increased neck tension over time. Improper synonyms are cold welding and electrolysis. Look up the noble scale of metals and know the small natural voltage potential differences do cause metallic ion transfers.;)
Overbore
 
Larry, First, I don't think newer brass experiences this because it's last operation was fireforming. A person has to usualy be way way over pressure to have new brass cause any extraction or chambering problem on the next firing.

I also don't mean to imply the brass will "return to previous dimensions", if that's what you're reading into what I wrote. What I mean is if the last operation made it smaller, it will probably tend to get bigger. And if the last operation made it bigger, it will tend to get smaller. The amount is not very much. I don't think it's something you could measure with calipers and fixtures. It's slight. This might sometimes explain why people get "bullet lock" where bullets are really tight in old cases, and then other times when you are working too clost to exact dimensions, loaded rounds might have the bullets fall down into em over time. Depends on using a bushing or a button. I don't know how much this movement could be, but I'd take Al's estimates above cause they agree with what I've felt. Someone is welcome to give more accurate figures.

I don't think many people who've seen this would disagree that working brass to dimensions that close is a bad thing. I know I don't like having mine quite that close where this can become an issue. When a case is so close that a piece of lint or dust will make the bolt close hard or not at all, that's bad. If a little bit of oxidation on the outside of the case causes enough growth to make a round chamber hard, or extract hard, we're gett'n too anal about case dimensions.


Overbore,

I think the best policy is to size a case far enough so that you don't run into this sort of issue. If you're experienceing this on a gas gun, have Lee or Redding make a custom one piece die and be done with the issue. For that matter you mught just be able to get another off the shelf die that's a little smaller.

If you're using once fired brass that began it's life in some other gun that has a big chamber, then you probably need a custom die to size the case head and thick body brass more.

On your other points, interesting stuff. Please don't give me more reading to do! :D
 
the general drift of your collective answers is that "stuff happens"

Think molecules!

I like to look at this from a "molecules moving" type of understanding.

When we fire, or resize, the molecules in the case (are moving and) get squeezed together. Then, their natural tendency is to "unsqueeze" their selves from one another, or relieve from their crowded condition. Perhaps they "slip" out of their close association with one another. The reason they might go one direction or the other, seems to be because that is the direction they were last "pushed" from, and are the most crowded here. They are also the most "heated" here, and molecular motion activity would be greatest where the most heat is.

In the short term (like immediately), the movement will be immediately noticable. In the longer term, the changes are less noticable, but occuring nonetheless.

I also wonder if these molecules don't have a certain "tension" to them. Just as water surface has a tension, which allows it to hold up an item on it's surface, disallowing it from sinking. With water at the surface, all the molecules are lined up with each other, forming a tight or strong bond.

Think molecules.

By the way, water is compressible. Compress it, and it will shrink in size. Take away the compression, and it will return to it's original state.


Just food for thought. I'll quit now.

longshooter
 
No molecules

Just a factual FYI intended to clear up any misconceptions....

There is no such thing as a molecule of metal.

Metals are characterized by an atomic crystalline structure, not by molecules.

SteveM.
 
Steve M.,

Thank you for the input.
Even though in the strictest sense, we cannot use the term molecule, in a broader sense, we can use it to convey a thought. The idea here is to get people to look inward of the cartridge case, instead of just looking at the outward symptoms. In other words, we can see the symptoms, but what are the cause(s).

Sometimes, you need to be a little forgiving of a person's chosen terminology, in order for that person to convey his thought. Educators, scientists, etc. will use less than correct terminolgy, to get their points across. That's how we learn.

You did cause me to do a little research. But that's okay, I like learning. The following is from a wiki article on molecules.

No typical molecule can be defined for ionic crystals (salts) and covalent crystals (network solids), although these are often composed of repeating unit cells that extend either in a plane (such as in graphite) or three-dimensionally (such as in diamond or sodium chloride). The theme of repeated unit-cellular-structure also holds for most condensed phases with metallic bonding.

The science of molecules is called molecular chemistry or molecular physics, depending on the focus. Molecular chemistry deals with the laws governing the interaction between molecules that results in the formation and breakage of chemical bonds, while molecular physics deals with the laws governing their structure and properties. In practice, however, this distinction is vague. In molecular sciences, a molecule consists of a stable system (bound state) comprising two or more atoms.

Read the whole article at;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecule

SteveM., please give your strict (or less than strict) interpretation of the phenomena known as brass springback, and thoughts on brass dimension changes over time.
Thank you,
longshooter
 
Springback

My thoughts on springback....

Although I haven't witnessed this phenomena firsthand, there are enough accounts being described here to believe that it is real.

Any time cold work is put into a metallic material, there will be residual stresses. The condition of the metal at the time the cold work is performed will have an affect on how much residual stress is retained. (i.e. annealed material will have less residual stress than already-cold worked material when the same amount of cold work is applied to samples of each material).

I am not an expert on cartridge brasses, but I am a Metallurgical Engineer by degree, so I have a working knowledge of brass behavior. When cold work (sizing) is performed on a cartridge case, there are many dislocations formed in the grain structure of the base material.

(oops, just got called to a meeting in the boss's office, I'll have to get back to this later).

SteveM.
 
Jetmugg,

How'd the meeting go?

You know, I have heard you say that you are a metallurgical engineer. Do you know what I think?

I think you don't know anything more about brass cartridge cases, than any of the rest of us do.

longshooter
 
Brass Cartridges

The meeting went fine. As I was saying, when brass is cold worked, there are many "dislocations" caused in the grain structure. This means that the grain boundaries are pushed around, broken, and "dislocated". The lattice structure of the atoms has been distorted. This condition is not the lowest state of free energy for the brass material. The grain boundaries will try to move back to their natural, relaxed state.

Atomic diffusion occurs over time, and is accelerated by temperature. This means that the atoms within the brass material will try to cross their new grain boundaries to achieve their lowest state of free energy. Normally, this diffusion is extremely slow at room temperature for most materials, although there are some which are "room temperature aging" materials.

I don't know enough about cartridge brasses to say for sure, but I suspect that there may be some diffusion taking place at room temperature in the common cartridge brass alloys. This is akin to the commonly understood "stress relief" treatments which are utilized with many metallic materials. As these internal stresses are relieved, there will be a change in the dimensions of the part (in this case, a sized cartridge).

That's my best educated guess to explain the phenomena of brass "springback" after sizing.

Longshooter - what is your theory about springback? Try to think in terms of individual atoms arranged in a crystalline lattice structure.


SteveM.
 
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