Bill Calfee - a question for you if I may ??

B

BJS6

Guest
In a recent thread this was stated as being something you said ........

Quote " ......... If you shoot loads with different velocities, do you know what I mean about different velocities, not different within the same load, and you have to adjust your tuner to get them to group, your tuner has not stopped the muzzle...in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle...if you have to adjust the tuner to get both loads to group, your muzzle is not stopped.......... "

Is that something you said ?

If so it seems that we are going around in circles. My understanding from what has been written is that with the right weight the proper distance ahead of the muzzle one can make two loads of differing velocities impact at the same place. The logical conclusion of that is that when a load is tuned in between those two velocities the rifle should group well with that load and be rather tolerant of small changes in the loads behaviour due to changes in temperature etc. In essence we'd have created a nice wide load window where accuracy will be at a competitive level and stay there reliably.

The above quote, if true, seems to be off on some tangent to the concept/theory on how muzzle forward tuners work that seems to being talked about.

Can you try and explain what you believe is achievable and the theory behind how that is achieved. Terms like "stopped muzzle" and "parallel node" and such seem to just confuse the issue, people have different ideas about what you are saying.

Does the muzzle stop dead so that a slow bullet will hit lower than a fast bullet or does the crown act as a pivot and the barrel behind moves so as to place a slow shot with a fast shot when the tuner is set up properly ?

What is your take on the comments that the natural vibration patterns of the barrel have no bearing on what is happening since the barrel is forced to vibrate in some other way that is hard to predict by the violence that is happening inside it ?

From a personal viewpoint I have a barrel that I'd be happy to have altered and use for tuner testing but I feel I need to better understand just what I ought to be aiming for to be able to make a vaguely educated guess a sto what tuner to start with and how to go about trying to achieve a nice wide accuracy window.

Many thanks

Bryce
 
Friend Bryce:

Freind Bryce:

I got on my machine and saw your thread.......you, like a bunch of folks, want to know the truth.....no BS....not like there's any BS on this fine forum..

I will attempt to answer your questions friend Bryce.....please, I will not respond again...I hope you understand, I simply can't.....I've got to try to make a living........I simply can't live on this forum.....you do understand, I'm sure...

!...no

2..no

3..no..

4..yes...

5..no...

6...no..

7.?....I will not respond...I do not have time, sorry...

8..Don't alter it....yes, you need a better understanding.....

I can not respond agian to your fine thread....I'm sorry..

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Friend Bryce, I simply can not take time to respond further......

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Bill

Are you saying you did not post this?

Tony


Friend Lawernce W

Friend Lawernce W:

I am old, and I have tested this day, cold, real cold, and windy 20-30 MPH..

But my friend, what I have found so far is this....your question about if the tuner stops the muzzle at one velocity, will it stop it at another....the anwer is YES..

I shot this PM, velocities from 1041 to 1072.....this is rimfire ammo....but it does relate to your question......all of the different velocities shot very small groups, but at slightly different heights on the target....and my tuner is not adjustable.....

Larry, in other words, I believe, with all my heart, I have stopped the muzzle with this experiment.....I think I can shoot several different velocities of ammo....all will have a slightly different impact vertically on the target....

My friend, there are folks on this forum, that will say; as the temp changes duiring a match, we must adjust our loads, tuner or not, to chase conditions......I am sorry my friends, but I do not, for one second, believe that the velocity difference between 70 degrees and 90 degrees, during a match, will cause any problems......but, if you do not use a tuner, or use a tuner too light, or positioned wrong, to comploetely STOP your muzzle, yes, you will have to adjust loads.......but why? If you folks use tuners heavy enough, and positioned properly, 30 degrees temp change in a match will mean absolutely nothing........please do not be mad at me for say this...

My friends, I put this thread on this forum to try my best to get centerfire folks to develop methods which will allow tuners to be used that will completely STOP your muzzles........not just slow them down...

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Friend Gene and Mike H, and everybody..

My friends:

Friend Gene: I qoute from you...and Mike H and others... "My question is, "How do you know when you have STOPPED the muzzle?"

Friend Gene and Mike H, and everybody.....Gene, yes, this IS THE QUESTION!!!!

I have written in a magazine, which I can't say the name of, cause Wilbur will accuse me of advertizing, and if he don't others will, about how to determine the proper weight of a tuner to stop the muzzle....

I have spent this week, running an experiment, which I am feely describing on this thread, on how to Stop the muzzle....

Please my friends, go back and read what I have posted about this experiment.....I am doing everyting in my power to describe to you folks how to STOP YOUR MUZZLES......

Please re-read what I have already written, please....but, if you have not read my articles on this subject, in that magazine, which I can't name, then, what I'm trying my dead level best to expalin, on this fourm, won't make much sense.......I'm sorry for that......I can't make folks buy that magazine...

Friend Gene.....one other thing.....about the muzzle blast affecting accuracy if the tuner is past the muzzle...? My friend, I do not think it does...as a matter of fact, I think it is a benefit to accuracy.....I do not think a bullet shot through a tube is hurt by the muzzle blast....unless the tube diameter is extremely small....

Gene, see my friend, the weight of the tuner has to be past the muzzle...so the bullet must pass through some sort of tube......this not only does not affect accruacy, but is probably an asset....

My friends, I am going to compete my experiment..and give the results...

How does one know when the muzzle is stopped? When you can shoot several loads, of different velocities, and all print small groups, even though those small groups, from different velocities, print at different heights on the target....you have stopped the muzzle... I am close to that now with my experiment....

If you shoot loads with different velocities, do you know what I mean about different velocities, not different within the same load, and you have to adjust your tuner to get them to group, your tuner has not stopped the muzzle...in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle...if you have to adjust the tuner to get both loads to group, your muzzle is not stopped...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bill, before the flames begin I have a question.

Are you using less weight than before to get the rifle to shoot small groups with this variety of ammo that is printing different on the vertical?
 
Thanks Bill,

To be honest non of that makes anything any more clear but I appreciate that you are busy and don't owe me anything in terms of making your thoughts and ideas more clear to me and others.

The posts that have been copied and pasted indicate that you did state what I asked about but that doesn't matter, we all forget or have a brain fade.

I'll continue to read and try and make some sense of the tuner theories and watch what the guys that are experimenting with tuners come up with.

Bryce
 
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