Best way to size 6.5x47 Lapua down to 6x47L? And what S bushing sizes have you used?

V

VaniB

New member
I'm getting started on my 6- 6.5x47 project, and ordered 100 Lapua cases today. Next, I need to place an order at Sinclair to buy the Redding dies.

I have never reduced brass to a smaller caliber. What's the best way to reduce the 6.5mm Lapua case neck size to 6mm?
On the phone, Redding suggested that I not try to use an "S" die and a series of "S" bushings to try to incremently squeeze the 6.5mm Lapua case neck down to 6mm. (He said something about the bushing not doing it fully or properly???) He suggested instead that I order a Redding RD91489 "full length 6x47 sizer die". (??)

The Redding guy said that after that step, I can proceed and use a Redding "S" full length sizer die (or a neck sizer die if I prefer) and size the neck to whatever size I normally would.

I would also like to know what bushing sizes you guys have found most usefull too, and think I should order for the "S" die.
 
Set up properly I suspect an S die and a series of bushes, say 3, would work.

At 6mm the case will have a shorter neck than it does at 6.5mm. A 6.5 x 47 S die die will be made to size nearly all of the neck at 6.5mm so in fact would need to have the bushes backed away from the lowest position so as not to crush the start of the shoulder. That means that the 6.5mm S die should be able to create the new 6mm neck right down to the neck to shoulder junction without any problem.

Trying to use a smaller calibre die on a bigger calibre case, say a 243 die on a 260 case, might not work so well but going small should be fine, say a 6mm BR die to neck down to 22BR.

I'd get the 6.5mm x 47 Type S full length die and a 6mm x 47 Wilson or Redding comp seater plus a few bushes and some brass and see how you get on. If it doesn't work out for some reason you can buy the fixed one piece die later.

If you can't get the 6.5mm die but only the 6mm then they may be right, it might not work so well. Still it would be worth a try first before buying more dies. Trouble is you don't need to buy very many bushes to have paid for another die.

Bryce
 
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Bryce 3 bushings? and to think I used to neck down 6BR brass to 22 BR in one pass through the FL die.

I'd buy the type S redding FL 6 x 47 L die set and the correct bushing but I'd think it could be down in one pas.

ML
 
You might be right Michael.

However the only times I have ever tried to neck down with bushes only I found that all it did was crush the neck. I tried 22 down to 17 and qucikly gave up and bought a form die.

I have been told that others have better luck, I don't know how my situation was different but there ya go.

Actually one thing that I found that helped. Running the case into some other suitable smaller calibre die just enough to allow the shoulder area of the die curl the end of the neck over. That would help it enter the bush and avoid crushing. Either way I never had much joy with necking down using bushes.

Bryce
 
I use a Redding 6BR FL die, haven't lost a case.

'Course I've only done 50 :)


I've done hundreds of 6BR down to 22BR though using the same thing......a 22BR FL die.


Both dies are one piece FL dies. I use Imperial die wax or lately Davey Dohrmann's case lube.


al
 
al,

Two of my friends did the same thing (on the one die) & because they're anal, they neck prep fired cases using the appropriate bushing in their Redding comp 6.5x47 die. Yep, you guessed. They seat using their 6BR seaters & spacers.
 
Bryce,
As for a seater die, I am sold on the Wilson seater dies. So because I buy a Wilson to seat my bullets, I don't ever buy a complete Redding set of dies. Therefore, I end up ordering a single purpose Redding die, one at a time, which gets expensive. No complaints about cost....as long as I know what I need and don't throw out my money buying the wrong stuff.

The standard S type full sizer die is $68, and the 6x47Lapua "sizer die" (#RD91489) is $52.75 And, because neither Sinclair or Redding lists or illustrates this RD91489 die, or explains how it works, I have no clue what it is.

I was hoping maybe somebody here has used this RD91489 6x47L "sizing die", and could shed some light on it for me. Perhaps I'll call Redding tomorrow again and make sure I understand what it is and how it works. I don't believe it uses bushings. I'm sure he was telling me that it sizes this 6.5mm case neck down to 6mm in one sweep.

I suppose, I'll need to buy that first and form some necks before I can figure out what size bushings I will need for the regular $68 "S" full length sizer dies.

Dave at Pacific told me to send him my 6x47L dummy round whenever I was ready, and he will make me a reamer. So I better make sure I know what I'm doing and it will be something that I formed properly and is conducive to great performance and accuracy.






EDIT: Al and John....I was posting this the same time you were posting your input. What I didn't like about this "RD91849" sizer die was it's out of stock and could take weeks to get. I'll ask Redding if I can use a standard 6BR die....since those are usually in stock. I guess what your saying is that the two very different body lengths of the cases doesn't make a real difference in the dies being it's just a matter of using the just the upper neck portion of the dies to squeeze the 6.5 neck down to 6mm.
 
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VaniB,


I'm serious, buy the absolute cheapest 6BR die you can get. RCBS or Redding, whatever.


I've actually ground old dies off on the benchgrinder to make sizing dies. If you've got an old 6MM or .243 die that you're not gonna' use again........measure it out and try it.


My point is that you absolutely do NOT need an exotic setup or series of forming dies when changing only a caliber or two and only the neck. Or even more than just the neck...... I once got a wild hair about wanting a .308Win shortened .200 for use as a HBR cartridge, I ran out into the reloading room and sawzalled the bottom off of an RCBS .308FL die that I would NEVER use anyway. I cleaned it up on a grinder and proceeded to swage shoulders back that very night. I then had a reamer made from that cut down sizer and ended up building an entire rifle around it. I literally ground that sizer down in increments, sizing cases and weighing them for water volume until I'd achieved 46gr H2O capacity.


There is one absolute rule.............the key to the entire process. Use a good lube like die wax or RCBS goop and use ONLY new brass.

New brass can be moved a caliber or two ONCE...........very easily.

Sizing UP now can get more complicated. It's dead easy to DO but hard to do RIGHT ;)


I would like to go on record AGAINST trying to size necks down in caliber using a button or bushing die like the "S" die. I see nothing but grief down that road.


al
 
VaniB said:
I'm getting started on my 6- 6.5x47 project, and ordered 100 Lapua cases today. Next, I need to place an order at Sinclair to buy the Redding dies.

I have never reduced brass to a smaller caliber. What's the best way to reduce the 6.5mm Lapua case neck size to 6mm?
On the phone, Redding suggested that I not try to use an "S" die and a series of "S" bushings to try to incremently squeeze the 6.5mm Lapua case neck down to 6mm. (He said something about the bushing not doing it fully or properly???) He suggested instead that I order a Redding RD91489 "full length 6x47 sizer die". (??)

The Redding guy said that after that step, I can proceed and use a Redding "S" full length sizer die (or a neck sizer die if I prefer) and size the neck to whatever size I normally would.

I would also like to know what bushing sizes you guys have found most usefull too, and think I should order for the "S" die.
Click to expand...

Vani,
Go to 6mmBr.com. There's a whole section on this very process that should have answers to all your questions.
Chino69
 
Forming 6X47L

I used Redding body and bushing dies to form 6X47L cases, until I got a 6X47L Forester FL die set with Ultra Seater from Sinclair. Now one pass through the FL die forms a perfect case every time. Quick and easy. In fact I seldom use the bushing dies to load formed cases any more. The Forester FL die fits my PacNor 6X47L chamber very well. I have some older Forester dies that I don't like very much, but the 6X47L dies are real gems. They are a bit cheaper than Redding also. Vic
 
Al,
Just got off the phone with Jay at Redding. -Heck of a nice guy, who's very patient and helpfull. When I asked him about his Redding RD91489 neck sizer die....and then asked him about what you suggested here (about using any 6mm die just to squeeze the neck down), he agreed that your idea is likely all I need to do. (yea, he's honest too :) )

I do happen to have an old RCBS .243 Winchester full size die and also a neck size die in .243Win that I dont use any longer. So I guess the neck size die is good candidate for this job. He explained that I can then assign my Redding "S" full length sizer die to proceed with any fired cases, and/or the task of being anal and squeezing the neck to the exact size I want. (using the exact bushing I want.)

Now I see why Sinclair didn't have that $52 "RD91489 sizer die" in stock, but had everything else in stock that I needed. I guess most folks do not want it, as they can simply use any other .243 cal size die they already have laying around.

Being new to resizing necks to other calibers, I wasn't aware of my options. Thanks for the input. I think it just saved me $52 that I didn't have to spend.

Chino
I'll look into that sight for more helpfull tips. Thanks.

vlcakc,
I was posting this at the same time as you.

I suppose then too (if I understand you), what this all means is that I could probably just use a 6x47L Redding full length sizer die, (instead of an S bushing die), and probably get the same results as using a Forster die that you suggest. (?) Or do you think that Forster is just too good to pass up? And then again, I can probably do fine to just stick with Al's idea to use my old .243 RCBS die to resize the 6.5 neck down to 6mm.
But really, is there any reason I should consider buying the Forster (or full length 6x47 Redding), if I have the RCBS dies for the neck resizer task.....and then I have a Redding "S" 6x47L die for more anal and exact resizing?

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you.....it's just that before I buy the stuff, I want to be sure I understand everything, and I'm not overlooking something.
 
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6X47L Case Forming

VaniB: A couple of comments. I have several Redding die sets, FL, neck and bushing, and like them a lot. I bought the Forester on the advice of a poster on another forum, and like it a lot also, and it was cheaper. Is it better than a Redding FL die? I don't know, probably not. I haven't used a Redding 6X47L FL die, but the Forester fits the Lapua 6X47L brass well. Al's idea of using old cut off or otherwise modified dies is a good one, one that I have also used on many occasions. However, I must point out that a cut off .243 die will not size all the neck of a 6X47L case due to the difference in shoulder angles, 30 degrees (6X47L) vs 20 degrees (.243) If you attempt to size the neck to the base of the shoulder with a cut off .243 die, it will also change the shoulder angle to 20 degrees. Not so good. An unmodified .243 AI FL die could also be used to start the neck reduction. It would not change the shoulder angle, since the AI has a 40 degree shoulder, but it would not size all the way to the shoulder (unless it was cut off) since it has a longer body. If I have very many cases to form and have time to order, I find it a lot faster and easier to just buy the correct dies. Hope this was not too confusing. Vic
 
vlcakc is completely right about the shoulder angle. The reason that I didn't get into this (actually I said measure it out and try it :)) is that once you get down to the nitty gritty the numbers do get a little confusing until you've actually done it.

My GUESS is that your 6X47 will be chambered with "some" headspace, that you're going to have to set your own jam-fit. For this initial neckdown/jamfit sizing process there's a good chance that even a .243 die will work BUT as vlcakc says, the shoulder angles are different. You will actually end up with a funny looking "S" shaped shoulder angle for your jam, more specifically a shoulder with two angles OR if your chamber is really minimum HS then you'll actually be reforming the shoulder a few thou by the time you make jamset with the neck........but it WILL still work. The change is much less drastic than blowing a .243 out to .243AI.


Another absolute KEY to the process is to start from Day One with a JAM-fit or crush-fit on your fireform cases.........do whatever it takes to produce such a fit that you have to lever the bolt closed on an empty case.


DO NOT believe that the bullet will hold the case back for fireforming, IT WILL NOT.


You have the perfect opportunity to set your jam, use it :)


al
 
6X47L Case Forming

It IS confusing until you actually try it. One way to quickly help visualize is to stand a .243 case and a 6.5X47L case side by side on a flat surface where you can look at them closely. First you'll notice the .243 is quite a bit longer in every dimension. If you sight directly across the case mouth of the 6.5X47L you'll notice that the top of the case is barely above the neck shoulder junction of the .243 case. This means that running the 6.5X47L case into an UNMODIFIED (not cut off at the base and shortened) .243 FL die won''t do much for you. The end of the neck will be reduced for a very short distance which doesn't help much at all and that's about it. Notice that Al has been talking about dies that have been cut off at the base and shortened. Dies are hardened steel and aren't usually that easy to cut off unless you have access to the proper tools. It can be done with a sawsall and electric grinder, but is a whole lot of work otherwise. If you like to experiment and try different ideas, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, my advice to you is to get a quality FL die, Redding or Forester, a Competition or Ultra seating die and give it a try at the range. Later, if you want, you can add the bushing die. You may decide, as I did, that I really didn't need the bushing die. Vic
 
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Again I gotta' agree wit' vlcakc :)


I do forget that I'm in construction, I've got every imaginable brute-force tool and even some fine ones ;)


If you've got not no access to tools then buying a die is much better.......



Regarding the bushing type die. I for one believe that being able to mess with neck tension is over rated. I have a full set of 6MM bushes with doubles for the .270, .269, .268, .267, .261, .260, .259 and .258 because I've messed with tension a lot..........but I've also learned that you can mess with tension via neck thickness. You can't CHANGE it more than about a thou but you can sure even them all out which IMO is all that's really important.



My point is, I'm AGAINagain agreeing with vkalck or whatever his name is........you can certainly get by for a while and have a lot of fun with JUST the FL die, but you'll run into trouble sizing down with the "S" die.


I'll disagree some regarding the need for a Competition Seater.......IME the quality of the seater has little or no effect on the straightness of the loaded ammunition. Wilson or any other is fine. I like Wilson seaters.


And I'm ANAL about runout. My rounds are straight, dead straight like zero wobble.


al
 
Al and vlcakc,

I follow you guys completely about what you are saying about the differences in shoulder angles between he 243Win and the 6x47L. Yes, I was planning on using an 8" cutting wheel to shorten my 243Win RCBS die (I've already done that to dies for other purposes). Though I originally pondered that the sharper shoulder on the 243Win die will not let me get down all the way on the 6.5 case neck, I had thought it would reduce enough of the neck for good bullet grip....BUT (and a big but).... I overlooked the fact that the little bit of neck that I can't size will remain at 6.5cal.....and that's not a good thing.

vlc,
I checked into Sinclair's stock to find that they are sold out of the Forster full length 6x47L die.....BUT....they have a forster 6x47L neck sizer die. The neck sizer die is only $29, so I think I'll buy it along with the Redding S full length dies and other stuff I need, and I'll just call it a day. Ok....now let me know if you think there is a reason why I should hold out and buy the Forster 6x47L in full size and not just neck size. Like I said, you guys have helped me understand this stuff and I want to make sure I'm still not overlooking something again.

Al,
I sure don't know a lick of beans about this sport to the extent that you do, but let me assure you I'm just as anal if not more anal then you!!! I hate bullet runout too. I have a Redding case neck gage to measure case neck uniformity, and then another two Sinclair concentricity gages sitting next to each other....one to measure the case concentricity without a bullet, and the other to probe the bullet run out of the completed cartridge. I have the rows of my plastic boxes labeled in accordance to the varying degree of runout from -1,000 thousandths to -5,0000ths. The first row of cartridges with almost no runout are the cartridges used to test new loads and are saved for the most accurate shooting. Anything over 5,000ths run out is relegated to bore-fouling shots.

So, you think you got the all time title, huh? Nope, when it comes to "anal" I'm the biggest as#hole there is.... and my wife would gladly vouch for me too. :D

On the topic you mentioned about preferably chambering the cartridges tight.....
You know it's funny how each rifle prefers different sized cases and different hand load particulars; I just finished testing my first custom rifle I ever owned, which is a 20Tac. I used the Redding full length S bushing die at the start only for the purpose of using the button to stretch the unfired Lapua case neck. I would then let the .229" size Redding S bushing make sure that the neck stayed at almost exactly .229" diameter. I had to do this because when I would try to load the Sierra bullet directly into the factory case, the Wilson seater was badly crimping the top of the bullet. (The Lapua 20Tac neck as it came from the facory was too tight and causing the bullets to crush/ distort)
These Lapua unfired cases would also fit slightly loose in the rifle chamber. I had worked out about a dozen different loads where some of the bullets were in the lands, some were touching the lands, and others were off the lands. I was able to get 5 shot 1/4" groups. Most groups of just about any powder and length were easilly 3/8" to 1/2" So....lucky me....the rifle liked most of what I fed it. (notice I said "most") BUT....when I tried to bump the shoulder of my once fired cases so the cartridge would fit snug into the chamber with no play and no slack, the accuracy went to crap! Go figure. So now.....I feel like I might again need a Redding S bushing full length sizer for this next 5x47L project too. But, who knows, maybe this next rifle will shoot better with the cases having been fired and then left to fit tight into the chamber as you recommend. (and as I have found on occassion too with other rifles I've owned) W'ell see....but right now I feel like that Redding full length S bushing die will probably be a good thing to own.


If you guys wouldn't mind helping me with this question too:When I make up a dummy cartridge for Dave at Pacific to base his reamer on (and it will be the reamer the smith will use to make my new $350, 6x47L barrel)....would you guys just seat your bullet in the sized neck and leave the Lapua case body alone as it came from the factory? I'm not sure that even if I tried to size an unfired case with the Redding full length sizer die, if it would even size down further then the original factory body dimensions anyway. (?) ie; What body dimensions do you guys usually like to have your reamers based on?
 
I just got done doing this...

I have a tight neck so I have to turn necks. I turn necks at a higher caliber so I don't get a donut problems. I am using 105 AMAX's which end up with the thick part of the bullet below the neck shoulder junction so a donut would be a big issue.

Anyway, I tried using a S Bushing die to do it and it DOES NOT WORK. The bushing does not size the entire neck so you end up with a buldge at the neck shoulder junction that prevents the round from chambering. I got a 6x47 full length die and the probem goes away. I had to waste a couple cases figuring out what to turn the necks to at 6.5 so when sized down I get the neck thickness I need. The Lapua brass is really good stuff and the internal diameter of the neck is smaller than my turning setup. I take a case, run it through my expander mandrel, trim, neck turn, size down with full length die, size with type S full length die and appropriate bushing, chamfer neck.
 
I know I write too much, and not everyone wants to read it all. But, I had already doubted that bushings could be used for this purpose, and had others here verify that fact. The S bushing die question was more of a seperate question for when the neck had been resized to 6mm already.

Though it was my intent to try and order everything I needed at the same time, I'll have to first wait and see how the brass sizes down.....measure it, and then figure out exactly what size bushings to buy in another seperate order.

Thanks for the input, as it serves to reinforce the fact that using bushings is not an option.
 
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