Berger tests regular vs. thick jackets with Bartlein - Unexpected Results

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Eric Stecker

New member
On January 3rd of 2007 with the help of Mid Tompkins we were able to test our new (at that time) thicker jackets to see if they did in fact eliminate bullets failures. Two Krieger barrels were provided and the test was a success. We produced 62 failures out of 510 shots using the regular J4 jackets. When we switched to the thicker jacket bullets no failures occurred in 440 shots.

The results of this test lead to our separating our entire line into 3 application based lines. The Target line is made using only thick jackets while the Hunting and Varmint lines are made using the standard jackets. Since then the occurrences of bullet failures is nearly zero.

After the results of the 2007 test we were approached by Bartlein and Broughton. These manufacturers offered barrels for additional testing. I am not interested in testing barrels as I believe there are too many variables and too few tests to provide a truly scientific result. I did want to prove that our theory was based on repeatable results so I agreed to further testing.

It took two years but on February 3rd we were at Ben Avery Shooting Facility with two Bartlein barrels and specific expectations. Attached are the results from this test.

As you will see the test was not completed. We shot 450 shots (regular jackets) in a little over 3 hours and even though we had 48 blown primers and a chronographed MV averaging 3,150+ we could not get one bullet to fail. We started shooting the thick jacket bullets but 11 of the first 15 rounds had blown primers. We did not want to ruin Mid and Nancy's gear or injure anyone so the decision was made to stop the test.

Mid switched out these barrel with some of their match barrel and within 15 shots both extractors broke in both actions. I truly appreciate Mid not only taking the time to chamber these barrels and load all the ammo but he sacrificed his gear in the interest of improved performance for rifle shooters. I can't say enough good things about him and many know how much he has given of himself for the benefit of others.

I promised Bartlein that I would publish the results. Take from this information what you can. We are considering extending the test using the Bartlein barrels to a greater number of shots. Remember the point of this test is to create bullet failures with regular jacket bullets and then shoot thick jacket bullets to see if the failures stop. Our significant abuse of the Bartlein barrels failed to produce bullet failures so we are going back to the drawing board.

Regards,
Eric
 

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Eric Stecker said:
The results of this test lead to our separating our entire line into 3 application based lines. The Target line is made using only thick jackets while the Hunting and Varmint lines are made using the standard jackets. Since then the occurrences of bullet failures is nearly zero.



Regards,
Eric
Click to expand...

I'm confused...wouldn't the target use the standard jackets and the hunting use the thicker?
 
Hi Eric...good to see that you are relentless at cureing the jacket mystery....
Please tell us what kind of action were in use and what type of extractor ...were the primers blanked to the point that the fire control required removal and cleaning...and the fireing pin diamater ...
..We realize the cal. was 6.5x 284...this was a test of the action not the bullet...the action (both of em) was put to the test,I was wondering which brand or type stood all this abuse((and the trigger))...if they want to do a velocity/bullet test they shulda chamberd somenting with a lot more steam like a 6.5-06 or ,gasp, a WWH or its equal...then they wuld have had the velocity at their disposal and culd have tried em at 3100--3200--3300 and rellly seen wht they were capable of ...lots of hunters shoot the bigger cases and the puny lil 284 didnt proove much to us....
Thank YOU Eric/Berger inc. for your continuing efforts to improve your bullets......Roger
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Bnhpr,

Your suggestion is consistent with the high weight retaining deep penetrating hunting bullets that have become so popular over the last few decades. Our VLD Hunting bullets perform differently. The standard jacket bullet was proven back in 2005 to work extremely well on game. They penetrate through the first 2" to 3" of tissue and bone before expanding.

Once expansion begins 40% to 85% of the bullets mass will become shrapnel creating a devastating wound channel. This results in most if not all of the energy dumping inside the animal where it belongs putting the animal down fast. This result is very consistent.

The thicker jackets do not behave the same way on impact in our media testing. For this reason we have not tested them on game. When we introduced our VLD bullets as a hunting option we were careful to make sure that the results were real and consistent.

The last thing we want is wounded game. Since the regular jackets work so well and the thick jackets behave differently in testing we do not recommend using our Target (thick jacket) bullets on game.

The bullet failures that were reported came entirely from target competition shooters. These failures occured during high round count situations, usually late in a match and typically during high tempuratures.

Once we discovered that these shooters were melting the cores we starting working on a way to insulate the core from the source of heat (friction between the rifling and the bearing surface). This is why the Target (thick jacket) bullets are made for the competition shooters.

Although, intuitively this may not seem true it is the competition target shooters who are much harder on components than hunters using larger cases.

Hello Roger,

This brings me to your questions. The actions were Stolles. They belong to Mid Tompkins and Nancy Gallagher so I am not very familiar with the particulars. I believe they use the standard Stolle extractor. I know one trigger was an Anschutz while the other was new (and not an Anschutz) but the maker escaped me.

The blown primers fell out of the cases. A flick of a finger removed the primer from inside the action and shooting continued. No cleaning or measuring was done while we were shooting. We did measure the diameter of the case head and found it to be .009 larger than an unfired case which is why (we believe) the primers were falling out.

In this test the 6.5X284 was chosen since many reports of failures came from F-Class shooters using this case. Since this was the source of the concern it seemed the best place to start. Remember that bullet failures occur during strings of firing many bullets. To date not one report of a bullet failure has come from a hunter.

I appreciate the kind words and we will continue our work to improve the rifle shooting experience.

Regards,
Eric
 
Good info...

Helloo agin Eric....I have never shot F-class ...but shur wuld like too,it sounds like benchrest "out in the field"....how many shots do they shoot in a string ...and is there no practical way to clean...my Becnrest bakground makes me cringe when you go to shooting more than 30 or so without cleaning....I bet a 17-22lb rig in 6.5x284 wuld be a treat to shoot...
Thank YOU for the effort...Roger
 
Berger Hunting vs Target Bullets

Hi Eric
Am I correct in assuming that the hunting and target bullets are made to the same manufacturing standards for consistency and the only difference is jacket thickness? I have used a lot of the "thin" jacket bullets with no problems including F-Class competition. Some of the vendors show "hunting" bullets in stock and "target" bullets out of stock. If the jacket thickness is not a problem for me, is there any reason I shouldn't shoot the "hunting" bullets in competition?
Thanks
 
Eric, first i want to say that Berger is doing a wonderful thing to the hunting world and the misconception of the bullet with the highest weight retention being the best for game. I've used your bullets for a few years now on all sizes of game and on paper also. You guys are making in my opinion the best bullet out there. back to the subject, i've never had a vld fail in any way. had a box with a couple that weren't formed, but thats another story
 
Roger,

Believe me I know what you mean. It was difficult for me to understand how you could shoot 60+ rounds and not clean. The challenge with cleaning during F-Class match is not so much the time to clean but rather the number of sighters.

I am by no means an expert so anyone can correct me if I am wrong but the course of fire I've shot limit the sighters to two at certain stages. These are usually after a yardage change so if you clean the barrel your first two sighters may be meaningless as they will be more like foulers. Each points is critical so you want to use every shot to get in the 10 ring.

I have shot only 2 F-Class matches but they were a blast. I am putting together an F-Class rifle and will become more active when it is ready.

Tony,

Your assumptions are 100% correct. One of the struggles we went through in splitting the line into "Hunting" and "Varmint" was the perception that the quality would be less in these lines. This is the reason why all of the boxes also say Match Grade.

We have only one process for making all of our bullets. Our process is based entirely on doing everything the same so that we can produce consistency which we believe is the key to precision. We don't sell our seconds (culls, blims) because Walt decided long ago that we make only match grade rifle bullets.

If you haven't had any problems with bullet failures and are looking for our VLDs the bullets listed as Hunting are the same bullets that have won matches and set records for decades.

Ackleyredmist,

Thank you for your kind words. We believe that the high weight retension, deep penetration bullets were meant to solve an old problem. There is no doubt that game can be taken with these bullets. I believe that as more hunters use VLDs they will understand why they are becoming so popular.

I hope you contacted us about the other item. We work hard to make good bullets but we are not perfect. We will spare no effort in standing behind our product and making things right.

Regards,
Eric
 
Eric, no i didn't contact the company. i wasn't going to get petty about a couple unformed bullets in one box out of the thousands of boxes i've gotten over the years. to me thats pretty damn good odds
 
Lynn,

I can't dispute your reasoning. I will point out that 1,000 bullet cost more than a good barrel so each shooter will have to decide for themselves where the cost is greater. If you had to buy thousands of lesser quality bullets to shoot out a lesser barrel you have already it might save you more money (and produce a better experience) to buy a different barrel so you can keep shooter better bullets.

I understand that I am discussing something that each shooter will need to wrestle with on their own however math and science don't lie. I look forward to learning how your 115 gr testing goes.

Ackerlyredmist,

I appreciate your comments and am happy that in general you are pleased with our bullets. I am compelled to communicate that we can do more for you if you give us the chance. Having said that, I won't beat a dead horse.

Regards,
Eric
 
What can be explained simply should not be made complex

Hit a animal in the deer family in the rib cage with a bullet that weights over 100 grains, at reasonable velocities and they are done.

End of story.

I don't care if it is a round ball from a musket with no jacket. It's shot placement that makes the kill. I'm sick of the deer running away stories because of bullet failure....then they come clean and tell you there was white hair and guacamole on the ground.

The VLD's work fine, because they are accurate, and I can put them exactly where I want. The sierra matchkings are the same imo.

I like to see an exit wound, so I use 180 grain 7mm VLD that baby goes through a mile of meat....Was in south texas a few weeks ago and The 142 matchkings and 140 VLD's in the 6.5x284 go through bone like butter too because of their length/diameter....nothing made it out of the sendero.

I have some video I will post when I get it back from my colleagues.

Ben
 
Ben, the vld's work excellent on game for more reason than accuracy. overall design and structure. some barrels will shoot fmj's accutately, is that a good reason to use them on game? this is a famous debate i dont have nearly enough time or patience for
 
Eric, Thanks for keeping the testing going and trying to get to the bottom of why bullets fail. Not an easy task due to scheduling it all etc....Thanks for keeping us in the loop. If there is anything else we can do to help please let us know.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
An important fact about the barrels has been brought to my attention by Bartlein. Both barrels had a bore diameter of .256 however the barrel with a .265 groove diameter was a 5R rifling configuration. The barrel with the .264 groove diameter was a standard 4 groove.

Regards,
Eric
 
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6mm 108 thick jacket and excessive pressure vs. normal J4

Admittedly this account would have more credibilty if authored first-hand, however I shoot with a fellow that was forced to withdraw from a 300M ISSF match because his loads were piercing primers and showing other signs of high pressures. He was using a 6BR with a 1:8 Kreiger .236 bore (I know, we sold it to him). He was using a modest 30.3 grains of Varget and 108 Berger thick-jacket bullets.

What I did not realize until later was he had simply started using the thick-jacketed 108's as opposd to the regular thin jackets and had not load developed for the new bullets, but he went on to suffere more cartridge failures in two rifles with simlar barrels. His chronographed results were 2850 fps - hardly a "hot" load, but in summary, I was surprised and alarmed by the stark difference in performance and pressures.
 
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