Benchrest target feedback

[afrench]

i'm a relatively new shooter in 100 and 200 yard Benchrest matches. i have real BR guns, rests, flags, etc.

one of the hardest things i've had to learn, and definitely still struggle with is how to adjust my loads for what the bullets are doing on target. what i'd like to do is post pictures of some targets and get feedback from some of you guys as to what adjustments y'all would make to correct the problem.

i'm aware of how incorrect rest/bag setup can and will affect the size of groups. and, of course, gun handling in general.

what i'm most interested in is, given the target, what loading changes would you make to try to improve the group?

some starting information:
Farley action
6ppc, 14 twist cut rifled barrel
1.5 degree reamer with 0.040" freebore
shooting 66 gr flat base bullets
necks turned to 0.0086"

the first target is a typical result for my first group at 200 yards for the day.
.257 neck size bushing
29.0 gr VV133, lot 2009
bullet 0.010" back from full jam, or about 0.008 into the lands

so, what needs to be done?

thanks!

 

[macflyboy]

The load maybe fine. Learn more about the environment in which your bullets are passing, the only way to do that is bench time. All ranges are different. If it was easy everyone would be shooting dots. I would have loved to have that group at Raton last weekend in the last match!

MAC

 

[goodgrouper]

I like these types of threads. Kinda fun.
Ok, need more info.
Did you try 28.6 and 29.4 grains? If so, what did they look like?
Did you try any other seating depths, specifically a "touch" point where the lands made a very faint mark?
What were the wind conditions during this group?
Did you hold same place every shot or were you holding off as conditions changed?

 

[LHSmith]

the first target is a typical result for my first group at 200 yards for the day.

QUOTE]

Did you shoot foulers before firing this group?
By the above quote, are you saying that this is a typical group?
Free-recoil style or hold....describe in detail.

 

[caroby]

Two shots..........

Hu..?

Yep, after a fouled barrel, then...
Two shots.... >Fast< on a sighter bull... Why fast..? To >try< to eliminate as much of the condition change as possible.

If with your load / gun / handling style........ The 2 shots cut or touch.... Your "ON it" so to speak. If a bullet or two seperating your close on load... If 3 or more, the load is not quite "there"... You don't waste a buncha expensive bullets and barrel life checking a tune with just two shots... Then try three or five "fast" "two shot groups".. If you and the gun can pretty consistently get'em cutting one another... Now my friend your ready to practice reading and dopeing wind conditions for a real honest to goodness 5-shot record group.... It's about CONFIDENSE in you, your gun and tune.

Try it... You'll learn A Lot! But your gun & handling must be working consistently or you'll be pullin your hair out...

This helps me quickly diagnose tune especially @ 200....

FYI..... Also try JUST off a rifleing mark.... "Just" a jump.


Oh.... One more thing, do you remember if the two shots that are touching on your target were "together"...
Meaning, were they the 1-2 shots, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5...? If so, it's telling ya something.... If not... Well the conditions were probably pretty "wild and wooly" so to speak..... Or the tune / handling is wild and wooly..

cale

 

[afrench]

yes, i went down to 28.7 and shot the following group. no other changes. this was much better but still a bit sensitive and the wind was pretty consistent during the string. i probably missed a slight angle change.

the conditions weren't too bad, wind from 9:00 at 10-12 mph with some push and letups.

I like these types of threads. Kinda fun.
Ok, need more info.
Did you try 28.6 and 29.4 grains? If so, what did they look like?
Did you try any other seating depths, specifically a "touch" point where the lands made a very faint mark?
What were the wind conditions during this group?
Did you hold same place every shot or were you holding off as conditions changed?

 

[afrench]

LHSmith --

i always shoot foulers after cleaning the barrel. also, the last group fired right before this at 100 yards was my best group for the 100 yard match. i've heard lots of guys say they shoot he same load going from 100 to 200 yards, but i've never had success doing that.

i shoot free recoil. tried pinning the gun and it just flat doesn't work for me. at 200 especially, i'm more of a condition picker than a runner with holding off. i know i need to work on getting the group done before the condition changes.

 

[afrench]

this was during a local club match from last year. i don't remember which bullets were the ones that touched.

i need to play with the touch point and area around that more. generally, my combo likes about .010 back of full jam at 100 yards.

my matches usually go like this:
first target at 100 is ok, i make adjustments and finally find a good spot to be by the 5th target. then, 200 comes around and i'm starting all over again.

Two shots..........

Hu..?

Yep, after a fouled barrel, then...
Two shots.... >Fast< on a sighter bull... Why fast..? To >try< to eliminate as much of the condition change as possible.

If with your load / gun / handling style........ The 2 shots cut or touch.... Your "ON it" so to speak. If a bullet or two seperating your close on load... If 3 or more, the load is not quite "there"... You don't waste a buncha expensive bullets and barrel life checking a tune with just two shots... Then try three or five "fast" "two shot groups".. If you and the gun can pretty consistently get'em cutting one another... Now my friend your ready to practice reading and dopeing wind conditions for a real honest to goodness 5-shot record group.... It's about CONFIDENSE in you, your gun and tune.

Try it... You'll learn A Lot! But your gun & handling must be working consistently or you'll be pullin your hair out...

This helps me quickly diagnose tune especially @ 200....

FYI..... Also try JUST off a rifleing mark.... "Just" a jump.


Oh.... One more thing, do you remember if the two shots that are touching on your target were "together"...
Meaning, were they the 1-2 shots, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5...? If so, it's telling ya something.... If not... Well the conditions were probably pretty "wild and wooly" so to speak..... Or the tune / handling is wild and wooly..

cale

 

[goodgrouper]

yes, i went down to 28.7 and shot the following group. no other changes. this was much better but still a bit sensitive and the wind was pretty consistent during the string. i probably missed a slight angle change.

the conditions weren't too bad, wind from 9:00 at 10-12 mph with some push and letups.

Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. The lighter load was working better. Now seating depth needs to be adjusted. You've got two impact points with horizontal in both. Missing an angle change can print this way, but if it seemed wind sensitive, then it's probably a seating depth issue and usually means you're in too deep to the riflings. I'd try less jam and 28.7 grains. Then try 28.3 and keep going down until you start to see vertical.

 

[LHSmith]

You don't show your sighters, so this may not apply.....but pay close attention to where each shot goes in regards to firing sequence......many in the game shoot "throw-away" shots before starting a group....or before using the sighter bull in score.....some barrels need conditioning not only by fouling, but also by heat. You may find that the first 2 shots from a "cold" (a relative term) barrel will always be away from the succeeding group. Just be careful where you sent those throw-aways on the target.....you don't want to get a DQ.

 

[zippy06]

try 28.3 at .016" off hard jam. Very light marks on the bullet.
When the group opens up during the afternoon. 1st or 2nd match go to 28.5. Should get a little dot @200y. Watch the mirage........flow........

 

[bojangles]

LHSmith --

i always shoot foulers after cleaning the barrel. also, the last group fired right before this at 100 yards was my best group for the 100 yard match. i've heard lots of guys say they shoot he same load going from 100 to 200 yards, but i've never had success doing that.

i shoot free recoil. tried pinning the gun and it just flat doesn't work for me. at 200 especially, i'm more of a condition picker than a runner with holding off. i know i need to work on getting the group done before the condition changes.

I'm new to the sport but have found my 6.5 Creedmoor shoots fowlers after cleaning. It seems like about 2 flyers and I am back on target. Is this about average? How many rounds do y'all usually shoot b4 cleaning? I have found that if I get a good string going to keep it up b4 the bbl cools. Trying to learn - great forum to do that!

 

[LHSmith]

Bo- two "conditioning" shots is common, some bbls., like my 30BR shoot to POA on first shot. I used to clean after 2 matches (~ 16 rounds) with naked bullets. Now, using Danzac, I clean at the end of the day ~ 60 rounds.

 

[afrench]

thanks for the input, guys.

one more question. the above targets were shot with a cut-rifled barrel with the bullet about 0.010 back of hard jam. how would your answers differ if it were a button rifled barrel??

 

[ReedG]

I'm not much more experienced with a 6 PPC than you. I have fired 100s of rounds testing loads and bullets ("trying things" is my sickness) and with my set-up have never had good groups with jammed bullets. I have never fooled with "hard jam" the way most folks on here talk about it. I have a case with a lengthwise slit in the neck and I start a bullet into the case, seat it in the chamber by fully closing the bolt, and refer to that length as "soft jam". I then shoot groups at +10, +5, @, -5 and -10 from that measurement. I've used H332, Benchmark, N133, 8208XBR, H335, H4198, Varget and W748. Through 100s of loads with these powders in .3- or .4-gr. increments, I have never had a good group at +10 from my soft jam. Most loads are best when seated at soft jam or -5 from it.

Having said that, groups like you are showing can very easily be from bench manners and very slight wind conditions. I am amazed every time I shoot my PPC by how the wind blows it around as compared to my 30 BR. A moderate wiggle of a tail on an early flag can drive a PPC crazy at 200 yards.

You certainly have top-quality equipment and you ask specifically for loading suggestions so I'll just say that I believe N133 has to be weighed charges to shoot competitively. I'm currently using 29.3 grains of N133 behind Euber 66-gr. FBs .005 off "soft jam" and my groups are smaller and more concentric than yours. Do I know why? No way. My cases are collet neck sized and have .002 neck tension. I also have good luck with FL sized cases but really hate using lube.

Hopefully some of these posts will give you some ideas and some encouragement. Enjoy ...

 

[afrench]

thanks ReedG.

i weigh charges on a chargemaster.

i've tried shooting at the touch point and even jumping the bullet and it works great for 3 or 4 shots and then it'll send 1 or 2 out a ring or two. being in the lands seems to prevent that, at least with what i have tried. i read Tony Boyer's book and have tried to follow his recommendations when it comes to seating the bullet to a specific point and adjusting loads with powder changes and staying within about 0.015 of full jam for button rifled barrels, etc.

also, most of the places i shoot are in the Texas panhandle. it gets very hot with low humidity and it blows like a son of a B**** most of the time. it's pretty rare to have winds below 5mph during a match. most of the time its 15 - 25. i'm pretty sure that i wouldn't do very well in a true no wind condition... i've never seen it!!

I'm not much more experienced with a 6 PPC than you. I have fired 100s of rounds testing loads and bullets ("trying things" is my sickness) and with my set-up have never had good groups with jammed bullets. I have never fooled with "hard jam" the way most folks on here talk about it. I have a case with a lengthwise slit in the neck and I start a bullet into the case, seat it in the chamber by fully closing the bolt, and refer to that length as "soft jam". I then shoot groups at +10, +5, @, -5 and -10 from that measurement. I've used H332, Benchmark, N133, 8208XBR, H335, H4198, Varget and W748. Through 100s of loads with these powders in .3- or .4-gr. increments, I have never had a good group at +10 from my soft jam. Most loads are best when seated at soft jam or -5 from it.

Having said that, groups like you are showing can very easily be from bench manners and very slight wind conditions. I am amazed every time I shoot my PPC by how the wind blows it around as compared to my 30 BR. A moderate wiggle of a tail on an early flag can drive a PPC crazy at 200 yards.

You certainly have top-quality equipment and you ask specifically for loading suggestions so I'll just say that I believe N133 has to be weighed charges to shoot competitively. I'm currently using 29.3 grains of N133 behind Euber 66-gr. FBs .005 off "soft jam" and my groups are smaller and more concentric than yours. Do I know why? No way. My cases are collet neck sized and have .002 neck tension. I also have good luck with FL sized cases but really hate using lube.

Hopefully some of these posts will give you some ideas and some encouragement. Enjoy ...