Applying flutes AFTER the fact.....to be or not to be???

V

VaniB

New member
After waiting 4 months, I received my 1-8 twist Brux 6.5 barrel this week. It is intended for a 26" sendero style 6.5 Creedmoor rifle and has the typical .820" muzzle diameter of the Remington sendero or varmint contours, but it swells to about 30,000-50,000ths beefier then a factory Remington barrel for about 2/3 the length of the barrel. Its now weighs exactly 5lbs before 1" is removed from both ends. So I guess that will make it about a 4 3/4 lb barrel. I don't formally compete, but with my handloads I strive for 1/4" to 3/8" five shot groups out of a custom built Rem 700 rifle. The style of rifle I want built will resemble the heft and build of the Remington 308 Police Rifle, or the Remington 5R M24 rifle..... Not a light sporter rifle, but not a bench rifle either. Well.......... it's just a bit too heavy, and I wish I had fluted it!


Brux told me to send it back and they would expedite and flute it for me for the extra cost of fluting. I asked about the fact that generally a barrel maker flutes the blank first before they flute it. But the two guys there understand I want to shoot sub 1/2" MOA , and they cheerfully guaranteed my satisfaction. (great folks to deal with!!) Ken said it will shave off 1/2 to 3/4 lbs.

But, double gunsmithing charges and $100 shipping it 4X to do a barrel swap out ain't cheap. Should I just order a whole new fluted barrel and sell this one?? ......or is this a good calculated risk that it will shoot fine after fluting?
 
OK, I've only had 10-12 barrels fluted but I've never heard of fluting prior to (rifling?? lapping??) IME they're ALL fluted after rifling/lapping/contouring. I've heard of lapping after contouring....

Anyways, I'll be curious to hear whether or not any maker actually recommends fluting early in the process.

I've had this guy do my latest work, FLAWLESS!!!

http://www.kampfeldcustom.com/

al
 
Hello Al,

Ooops....in my opening post I said; "I asked Brux about the fact that generally a barrel maker flutes the blank first before they flute it." What I meant to say was "a barrel maker flutes the blank first before they bore it." Anyway, you seemed to know what I meant.

It's interesting that you believe it is the other way around that the bore is reemed first, and then the flutes applied. From the research I've done on the topic, supposedly the fluting can cause the stesses in the metal to relax and if the barrel already has a bore in it, then that bore can become contorted. Therefore, the barrel makers will flute first to relieve the stresses and allow the metal to relax. (??)

Anyway, that's the way I understood it.......and unless Brux was just appeasing me and going along with me, they indicated to me that they flute it before the bore is reemed. Do you know for a fact the flutes were put in your barrels later? If so, did you experience the accuracy to be just as fine in those barrels as your none-fluted barrels?
 
FBecigneul said:
As I understand it, the fluting is done before the boring and rifling. This is what Skip Otto went counter to and fluted after the boring/rifling. With cut rifled barrels it is less of an issue as the cutting of the rifling introduces less stress than a buttoned rifle.
Click to expand...

Yes, about an hour ago after responding to Al's post I googled: "Does fluting a barrel effect accuracy?" There were 6 pages on this topic at Longrange Hunting forums in which the methods of various barrel makers are also mentioned.... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/does-fluting-affect-barrel-accuracy-93904/

The consensus seems that fluting is surely preferred before applying the rifling. And as you say, cut-rifling is less susceptible to stresses in the metal compared to button rifling. I think I'll play it safe and order a whole new barrel from Brux that is fluted before it is rifled. It's better to play it safe that way then to have to pay a smith labor charges twice for rebarreling.

Thanks gents.
 
Don't care what they say on other forums :) Barrels are bored and rifled as BLANKS, whilst they can still be held in fixtures...... and flutes are cut only after the contour and once the crown-to length is established.


I've had flutes cut by the maker (after boring/reaming/lapping/rifling/contouring/final lapping) which SETS the crown (risky) and even had to move a crown right up tight to the flutes once't because it was opening up, but in any case I've never heard of rifling after fluting........Now, if a barrel maker wants to come on and tell me how he holds his contoured/fluted barrel and how he avoids humpty-bumps in said barrel whilst pushing a button, I'm all ears :)



I've got straight fluted, spiral fluted, spiral fluted directly over and matching the rifling, flutes running counter to the rifling, flutes spiraled to match the bolt and flutes as diamonds and waves....flutes made with grinding wheels and cutoff saws and flutes cut with endmills..... I've got a barrel fluted so deeply that if you try remove it in the stock it winds up like a spring.


None of them were fluted prior to rifling.


The only "argument" of which I'm aware concerns contouring/fluting button-rifled barrels VS cut-rifled and which ones open up more.
 
If you will give me a list of the barrel makers that you want to know about, when I get some time next week, I will assemble a report, sourced from those very barrel makers. Sometimes I despair of all of the bad information that gets passed around on the internet (not referring to any posts on this thread). I seriously doubt that any fluting is done before rifling or contouring, but if I am wrong, you will have that information after I put together my report. I will take me about 30 minutes to an hour of phone work, and my phone is on a flat rate per month.

Boyd
 
Boyd Allen said:
If you will give me a list of the barrel makers that you want to know about, when I get some time next week, I will assemble a report, sourced from those very barrel makers. Sometimes I despair of all of the bad information that gets passed around on the internet (not referring to any posts on this thread). I seriously doubt that any fluting is done before rifling or contouring, but if I am wrong, you will have that information after I put together my report. I will take me about 30 minutes to an hour of phone work, and my phone is on a flat rate per month.

Boyd
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Thanks for your time Boyd,
Look forward to your results
Over here i have used Lilja's, and they have been fluted later, by my Smith
Jim
 
John Kielly said:
Meanwhile, It might be worthwhile to read this article from Geoffrey Kolbe of Border Barrels:

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
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Very interesting. I just learned a lot about accurate barrel boring teqnique via reading that, and the reasons why each method will induces more or less stress on a barrel bore. I also found it interesting to learn that in todays modern automated world, the cut rifling machines that Brux and Krieger are using are WWII era antiques which require a lot of operating time per barrel. However, this article seems to still confirm to me the fact that applying the flutes to a barrel is best done before any reaming, though the cut rifling method is the most foregiving should fluting be applied after.
 
Quote from John Krieger

Al, here is a direct quote from John Krieger (2006).
"One thing that I do differently than many is contour the barrel before drilling it. I have found that it is easier to keep the drill centered and straight this way. Also, I drill from muzzle to breech. I don't know that it is necessarily better, but the bore at the muzzle end can be centered better."

That is from the "horse's mouth"....so to speak. James
 
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James M. said:
Al, here is a direct quote from John Krieger (2006).
"One thing that I do differently than many is contour the barrel before drilling it. I have found that it is easier to keep the drill centered and straight this way. Also, I drill from muzzle to breech. I don't know that it is necessarily better, but the bore at the muzzle end can be centered better."

That is from the "horse's mouth"....so to speak. James
Click to expand...

Ba-da-BOOM! And there's my answer......

Thanks Mr Mock.

al
 
BTW, this may explain why, when using cut-rifled blanks it's often necessary to hand-blend the transition from shank to barrel after cleaning up the shank portion of the bbl..... I recently hadda' completely re-contour a XXXX cut-rifled barrel. And then have it re-fluted.

sucked

al
 
It is not the vintage of the machinery that determines the time it takes to make a cut barrel, but the method. Groves are cut by taking multiple passes in each groove, and that is always going to take longer than pulling a button through once. Bartlein uses new machinery, and I am pretty sure that their time per barrel would be similar to the companies who use well maintained and updated Prat Whitney machinery. You may find this video interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnKSfDUCWY
 
Boyd Allen said:
It is not the vintage of the machinery that determines the time it takes to make a cut barrel, but the method. Groves are cut by taking multiple passes in each groove, and that is always going to take longer than pulling a button through once. Bartlein uses new machinery, and I am pretty sure that their time per barrel would be similar to the companies who use well maintained and updated Prat Whitney machinery. You may find this video interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnKSfDUCWY
Click to expand...

This video just confirms my feelings that the barrel makers who use the cut rifling method are really earning their money, and that the $300 or so that is charged for the barrel blank and labor/equipment costs involved in making that barrel really isn't a whole lot of money for me to have to pay. I would think that a cut rifling barrel maker also has to have more then just one of these machines under his roof going at the same time on a daily basis if he wants to have a very profitable business. Yes, I can see where the button method would be much faster and preferred by most businesses who would focus more on the rate of production and their bottom line.
 
FBecigneul said:
"OK, I've only had 10-12 barrels fluted but I've never heard of fluting prior to (rifling?? lapping??) IME they're ALL fluted after rifling/lapping/contouring. I've heard of lapping after contouring...."
"
Al, here is a direct quote from John Krieger (2006).
"One thing that I do differently than many is contour the barrel before drilling it. I have found that it is easier to keep the drill centered and straight this way. Also, I drill from muzzle to breech. I don't know that it is necessarily better, but the bore at the muzzle end can be centered better."

That is from the "horse's mouth"....so to speak. James "

"Ba-da-BOOM! And there's my answer......

Thanks Mr Mock."


Have you changed your answer, Al?
Tell me you aren't a politishun now.
Click to expand...


???

Well I sure don't know how to answer THIS :)

I done left the midwest a long time ago..... I now live where folks just say it.

I'm rusty at figuring out what you're really asking... I don't know how to be more plain.

Help me out?

al
 
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