Anyone load this way ? --no re-sizing at all, almost to neck tension--

M

matchman

Guest
I was reading a book :The Benchrest Shooting Primer about a suscesfull shooter that loads this way. I guiess the key was to have a real close fitting neck (under .001) and not to use Hot loads. He would just replace the primer, drop the powder, insert the bullet long with his fingers. I assume the reasoning was with almost no neck tension the bullet will be aligned when it engauges the rifling.
I guiess trying this with N133 is out of the question as Ive noticed the smaller groups are loaded hot on the upper end of things. H322 seams to work ok at lower side of it to try this.
Or Is this all just so....15-20 yr ago stuff ? (its an old book)
Not competive with todays max load/ adjustable neck tension loadings ?
Adam
 
In the early eighties, this practice was known as 'step neck' loading. Later when no real advantage was gained it gradually lost favor.
 
<Or Is this all just so....15-20 yr ago stuff ? (its an old book)
Not competive with todays max load/ adjustable neck tension loadings ?>

Pretty much......... Get Tonys / Ratigans book(s)......... Current.

Fitted rounds is just asking for trouble. Can be VERY dangerous with such tight chamberings, as pressure will SKYROCKET with a tiny change in powder/seating depth..

At times, speed is king in SR Benchrest...... Why by far most use FL dies and neck clearance of .002 - .003 range .. IF < .002, the tinyest speck of crud on the neck will result in a stuck case/chamber..... Can't close bolt, CAN'T pull the bolt back.....STUCK.! Dangerous too..!

The books suggested in tandom will REALLY help a person understand CURRENT SR Benchrest shooting techniques..

cale
 
Ted Manning has won many a match and shot his way into the SE region hall of fame with these methods, not sure if he still does this or not as I haven't shot group in awhile. Ted was always one to beat if you wanted to win!
 
Actually Steve, Ted use to change his seating depth by changing how much powder he put in the case. Bullet rested on the powder. More powder = more bullet jam.

This was long before VV N-133, guys. I use to do this (without the stepped necks) when shooting the old 2015 powder. It (and I) shot better in those long-ago days. Neck tension was light enough I'd seat bullets using a Wilson seater with just thumb pressure.
 
Different powders "like" different loading methods. Cut some brass to the clearance that you wrote of (Be careful to make sure you have some clearance.) and do some testing. None of the top shooters that I know load that way.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Different powders "like" different loading methods. Cut some brass to the clearance that you wrote of (Be careful to make sure you have some clearance.) and do some testing. None of the top shooters that I know load that way.
Click to expand...
Boyd, I've read that Red Cornelison used stepped necks -- back in the days when we were tadpoles.
 
caroby said:
<Or Is this all just so....15-20 yr ago stuff ? (its an old book)
Not competive with todays max load/ adjustable neck tension loadings ?>

Pretty much......... Get Tonys / Ratigans book(s)......... Current.

Fitted rounds is just asking for trouble. Can be VERY dangerous with such tight chamberings, as pressure will SKYROCKET with a tiny change in powder/seating depth..

At times, speed is king in SR Benchrest...... Why by far most use FL dies and neck clearance of .002 - .003 range .. IF < .002, the tinyest speck of crud on the neck will result in a stuck case/chamber..... Can't close bolt, CAN'T pull the bolt back.....STUCK.! Dangerous too..!

The books suggested in tandom will REALLY help a person understand CURRENT SR Benchrest shooting techniques..

cale
Click to expand...



I can't agree with any of this.

Literally.

I have loaded thousands of rounds this way and never experienced any issues except that brass gradually tightens up. I've set out on a varmint patch with three rifles and a powder thrower and shot all day. Just deprime/prime and shoot.

al
 
>>>I can't agree with any of this.

Literally.

I have loaded thousands of rounds this way and never experienced any issues except that brass gradually tightens up. I've set out on a varmint patch with three rifles and a powder thrower and shot all day. Just deprime/prime and shoot.

al <<<<


Al, I'll start off by say'n I understand your contention that having the convenience of a chamber clearence this small and allowing one to simply not have to size the brass is convienent. I've done this too, neat that the neck tension does remain for a while. But as you said, it does tight'n up. Done this as you contend, varmint rifle but not BR competition.
Difference is... I have stuck a LIGHTLY buggered up case neck in a chamber in the field...
Rifle is a club........... But a club with a LIVE round in it...! Back at a competent Smiths shop... Barrel out of action.... Poured several ounces of Kroil in the barrel, let soak... Used a shell holder and carefully extracted the live round (camming action in a vice)... The neck ding was TINY.... But, enough to stick the round and yank the Rem extractor right out of the BF...

As for Benchrest........

Any experienced Benchrest shooter like to disagree with Al's above opinion...............? Just because >HE< has loaded 1000's of rounds this way....... Without a stuck case (for WHATEVER reason).
I know myself and plenty others who would NOT recommend sub .002 and in particular sub .001 clearences. It's not needed then or now...Varmint rifles BR whatever...........? Tighter does not mean more accurate or less run out. Al example is primarily used for convienience as not to have to size neck or entire case.

Remember............ TOTAL clearence... .0005 + .0005 = .001
If.... One has .001 total clearence, Experienced shooter or not.... Don't take much to get stuck in the chamber neck (can't close bolt...can't extract the live round with bolt) .....
Way dangerous..!

It's DEFINATELY not needed even in todays tiny aggs... I personally know of NO current competitive SR Benchrest shooters that do......... I'm sure a few do... Al, for one.. But do Boyer, Ratigan, ............. Any others that I'm not listing prep chambers/brass for sub .002 much less sub .001 total clearence..?

Matchman may have plenty of years shooting................ But is new to Benchrest SR or LR.......... The BR Primer book is a good read.......... But....... It's old techniques... Didn't say those techniques didn't work or couldn't work today.... Just that current methods WORK and are SAFER... Tony and Ratigans books .............Current.

This is why we (I certianly do!) see SO MANY people new to Benchrest, question why MOST current Benchrest shooters are NOT using Neck Size dies (Some though still do use neck die's... BUT not most)...

This is Primarily due to someone who is curious to accuracy or actual Benchrest go into his/her local Barnes and Noble.... And tada... The Benchrest Primer.............. Old tech... Not current....

Al...I'm just say'n that >New< shooters don't need to be steered to methods that >>>WITHOUT knowledge<<< could significantly increase harm to themselves.

Removing a barrel from an action with a stuck LIVE round in the chamber (can not be removed with bolt/extractor) requires patients and EXPERIENCE........... And yes I know this happens with LOOSE factory chambers.... Super tight chamberings just SIGNIFICANTLY increases this situation.... And is NOT needed......

What are my neck clearences on current Competitive Benchrest rifles.............. .0025 total .. .00125 per side... Strait dies and controled runout = competitive rifles.... Couple Grands as of late...
I know Jackie for one who recommends this practice... Because it works and is WAY safer.

Respectfully my opinion... I mostly agree with your opinions Al on other threads, just not this one.

Others opinions..........?
cale
 
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Charles, I was aware of that, I answered the original post and he said no sizing, simple replace primer, drop powder and set bullet on top. Ted referred to it as fitted necks, best I remember. I'm not recommending this to others just answering a question.
 
>>>This is good stuff....thanks Guys. <<<

Adam... What Al is say'n, there's certainly nothing wrong with loading that way... Just it requires a bit more attention to details with the necks (brass in general) your are load'n and shoot'n... I've done the same loading technique too... It's convenient for loading in the field as Al states... And IS safe IF you DO NOT force anything if it doesn't go easily........!


I'll say it again......... Don't force it if it wont go ... ! In all my long post... That's ultimately what I'm stating..

cale
 
Back in 1980 I had a used one of these type guns in a 6x47 International.
Then at least here they called them tight necks.
Change the primer add powder and seat the bullet.
Ready to go again.
No need to size anything.
That was an xp100 action, shilen barrel, on a Mcmillan stock.

Now days people have a different meaning for tight neck than what it was in the beginning.
 
I have always found it funny when I hear people reffering to fitted necks as .002-.003 total clearance. I suppose that anyone
that turns necks to get them in the gun can say they have fitted necks. I don't think that is a true. Read over what
was done in the Houston warehouse. After turning and fireforming, the necks were individually worked to match neck tension and
no mention of a sizing die was ever made. In the early days of the ppc, pressures were not where they are today. My early
attempts with fitted necks were that way. I had no problems at the Velocity levels I was shooting. Changing to a different
bullet often gave more or less tension and the slightest burr was problematic so I abandoned it. I never had a stuck case, ever. The warnings
came often from people not familiar with reading micrometers and some who repeat things but could hardly read a digital
caliper. That was 35+ years ago. Three years ago, I did the .0002 total clearance thing again, but with todays loads.
In the barrels I tried that way, it wasn't to be, but shot much better with some clearance. I have never had a stuck case doing this.
If you have stuck cases doing this, it time to look over your Mic reading skills
 
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A couple of decades back, I was loading for a .244 neck .222, at the range, with a Wilson neck die and seater. (and plastic headed mallet)The case necks were turned for a close loaded round fit with the Sierras that I had been shoooting. I was there to try some Shilen 52 gr. bullets. I loaded up some cases and shot a group, and then ran them through the die and reloaded them, without cleaning the necks. (I was shooting 748) The second time around, the bolt stopped well short of closing. Curious, I applied some thumb pressure to the end of the cocking piece, and was able t close the bolt. Curious, I unloaded and looked at the loaded round. It had a bright line all the way around the neck over the bullet's pressure ring. I would say that that was about as close as one could fit one. I closed the bolt, started a new group, examined the case, and finding nothing amiss, finished the group, with a little thumb assistance for each loading. Loading for the next group, with the same cases, I first brushed out the inside of the necks, and they chambered without the thumb pressure. Now top that for a tight fit story ;-) Later, back at home, I measured the bullets. They were fat, .225, if I remember correctly. Always measure your loaded rounds when loading a new bullet.
 
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