Any interest in Spring Piston Rifle Class

[BobZ]

There have been questions in the past as to creation of a Piston Class in USARBR Competition. In my opinion the best way to provide input for creation of a class is provide evidence of participation.

I would like to suggest using the rules below so that anyone interested, turn is scores posted in this thread for three target matches, using the USARBR target.
As long as the rules are followed any individual can post a score. Providing Name, Date, Rifle manufacturer and model , specify Break Barrel, Underlever or Side cocking. Specify Scope Used and Which Club near you might host a match if the class is added. Specify indoor or outdoor. This is a test only to check interest in this class for possible addition at some later date.

Houston Postal Competition

TEST Spring Piston Rifle Class
.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
Any spring piston rifle with factory stock, barrel, and trigger not to
exceed $1500.00 Available internet pricing, including scope and scope rings.
Stock to be a factory original and sporter / hunter style in design.
Any power level is allowed.
Any weight is allowed.
Shooting will be off bags, inexpensive front rest, sand bags, or a mechanical rest where the adjustment knobs
are not used during the course of fire.
One piece rest will not be allowed
Scopes may utilize illumination.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters.

A single competitor with range access may turn in scores and equipment list.

Any one wanting to turn in a score is welcome if your equipment does not fit the rules submit a score with equipment description and what items are outside the guidelines.

 

[Pete B.]

Springer Class BR

I really enjoy Springers, and most of the guys that have shot with me at the Two Matches in Arizonia I competed know that. I have also been upfront that a Feinwerkbau 300 is in its own class. As are some older Olympic style guns. These guns were $1300+ back in the 70's, used now around $500-700.00
I have shot about everything out there and have my favorites I own.My 48 year old Sheridan Silver Streak, Beeman R1 17/22, FWB 124, RWS 54. They each do very well for the conditions. As Mark ( The other Mark ) has shown, a modified Break Barrel LVG can compete and Kick butt.
The Matches I'll be holding in Montana next year for Springer are FWB 300 style own class, Break Barrel unmodified own class, solid barrel underlever/side cock own class. It makes it fair, and you compete in that group. Doesnt matter if no one else is shooting your type gun for the Day, if you beat the exsisting record at our Range you are Top Dog on the list!
We also have our PCP Matches...if you not up to the springer challenge. I'm having guys pulling the springers out of the closet. If they make a Match then shoot a PCP, well I feel I just helped the sport. I bought and just started shooting two FWB P70's just weeks before the Nationals. If I'm driving 1200+ miles I want to shoot every match. I really enjoy them , very easy to shoot, very accurate, and cheap shooting after investing in the guns and tank.
These are just my thoughts, Thanks for letting me share my views. Respectfully, Pete Berube

PS, I should add this is more of a Fun Shoot BR Match with the Springers, there being so many variables in guns. The PCP Matches are definately like shooting any center fire Match like VFS, HBR, etc

 

[BobZ]

Great to hear you efforts.

I really enjoy Springers, and most of the guys that have shot with me at the Two Matches in Arizonia I competed know that. I have also been upfront that a Feinwerkbau 300 is in its own class. As are some older Olympic style guns. These guns were $1300+ back in the 70's, used now around $500-700.00
I have shot about everything out there and have my favorites I own.My 48 year old Sheridan Silver Streak, Beeman R1 17/22, FWB 124, RWS 54. They each do very well for the conditions. As Mark ( The other Mark ) has shown, a modified Break Barrel LVG can compete and Kick butt.
The Matches I'll be holding in Montana next year for Springer are FWB 300 style own class, Break Barrel unmodified own class, solid barrel underlever/side cock own class. It makes it fair, and you compete in that group. Doesnt matter if no one else is shooting your type gun for the Day, if you beat the exsisting record at our Range you are Top Dog on the list!
We also have our PCP Matches...if you not up to the springer challenge. I'm having guys pulling the springers out of the closet. If they make a Match then shoot a PCP, well I feel I just helped the sport. I bought and just started shooting two FWB P70's just weeks before the Nationals. If I'm driving 1200+ miles I want to shoot every match. I really enjoy them , very easy to shoot, very accurate, and cheap shooting after investing in the guns and tank.
These are just my thoughts, Thanks for letting me share my views. Respectfully, Pete Berube

Thanks for the reply and info on your success.

The goal here is to see if running matches at a club level with no National Postal Competition is the route to take. If we are even consider a class for piston guns beyond that, then we must test interest. A statement of interest is not the goal. Using the rules I have submitted. The price is for new guns available, if the rifle is not longer in manufacture we need to go by the best average of reported sales.

Lets see some scores, Using the simple rules attached. The equipment reporting will sort out who has what and will indicate how any sub classes need to be defined.
If one can read and the information is submitted, it will be a easy to see who is winning with what rifle.

This is a test and no scores turned in indicates no interest in A National Score Line Class. Talk it up with your shooters. There must be some interest beyond your success at a local level. Lets see who has one in the closet and who does not want to invest more money in fancy rest. I will be interested in seeing some results before I make my purchase.

Bob

 

[mbouchpcp]

Springer Class Yes, Postal match no. I fail to see the reason for the $1000 limit.

There have been questions in the past as to creation of a Piston Class in USARBR Competition. In my opinion the best way to provide input for creation of a class is provide evidence of participation.

I would like to suggest using the rules below so.....Target distance will be 25 meters.

IMHO postal matches are a great idea but will do nothing to gauge interest in an actual springer class. Interest can only be gauged IMHO by actually establishing a class - even if it is for a one year trial period - and then see what happens.

If a class were established I would expect to see clubs holding quarterly or semi annual springer events. The reason I foresee this is most of the springer guys I have shot against in Phoenix and Temecula also shoot PCP. Thus, PCP foucs will remain but every now and then even dedicated PCPers like to shoot a quality spring gun.

 

[BobZ]

Thanks for your input.

IMHO postal matches are a great idea but will do nothing to gauge interest in an actual springer class. Interest can only be gauged IMHO by actually establishing a class - even if it is for a one year trial period - and then see what happens.

If a class were established I would expect to see clubs holding quarterly or semi annual springer events. The reason I foresee this is most of the springer guys I have shot against in Phoenix and Temecula also shoot PCP. Thus, PCP focus will remain but every now and then even dedicated PCPers like to shoot a quality spring gun.

The 1000.00 test limit was an attempt to qualify piston rifles that are allowed in the production class but the limit there excludes many piston rifles. It is my opinion that in a basic or entry level class, that a dollar limit will bring in more competitors that might not want to compete against the limited number real high dollar piston rifles. Perhaps a higher limit set to include a couple of the more expensive piston guns would work. It has been mentioned that the original sales price of the FWB 300 was over 1300.00. The rules provide for rifles out of production to qualify.

I believe that the postal level of competition has created and continues to grow USARBR competition. The Scoreline provides the opportunity for one piston air rifle owner to attend a local match and compare score averages with others in the US.

There is one goal and only one goal in this thread...... To challenge anyone having a piston rifle with the desire to compete in bench competition to show up and shoot, turn in a score and lets see if there is any interest at all.

So far the future looks dim in my opinion. If a interested shooter is not willing to obtain three approved targets and report his results I would say his interest level is very low.

I plan to purchase a piston rifle if the class is established and I would like to see the potential of various rifles. I have owned a TX200. HW97, FWB 150. I have competed in FT,
Silhouette and 10 meter indoor matches.

At our local club, one of the largest clubs in Texas, we obtained 5 HW 97 rifles from BEEMAN. We advertised free use of these with free pellets free entry fee to grow air rifle competition. We had no takers even though our active PCP shooters had agreed to leave our expensive rifles at home.

I believe that a shooter interested in BR will be welcomed at most clubs regardless of an existing class and will be allowed to shoot in local club matches.

Thanks

Bob Z

 

[garrettkq]

Here are some of the issues I have regarding this:

first of all, let's remember that if one group never sees a spring gun shooter, it does not mean there are other groups that never see them. Every region has different types of rifles.

Spring guns have a clear, indisputable significant point difference between PCPs, so much so, that no other variant of rifle even comes close. Not electronic, not scope power, not caliber, nor even FPE. This in its own right deserves it's own class.

Why is there so much resistance to this? There is NO skin off anyone's back for having this class present. It won't bother anyone who does not shoot spring.

Having a a financial amount attached to any class is ridiculous. How would we enforce that? "Please bring your receipts to the check in." There is not one rifle that is stock in Benchrest, not one. Everyone tweaks something. It is absolutely uninforcable. Think about it. Why don't we attach a finincial limit to say Open? Exactly, nobody would accept that. So, why should the spring class shooters.

Playing a game to gauge interest is no way to embark upon this. There IS interest. Recognize it. Move forward. Get it done.

Now, we are not going to cow tail, beg, and play games to an organization that is not willing to move forward with this. I am hereby making a motion for the USARB to create a Spring Airgun Class with the following rule set:

Springer Class
Calibers allowed: 177, .20 and .22.
Foot Pounds of Energy: maximum of 35
Weight of rifle: maximum of 20 pounds.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance: 25 meters or 50 yards, at discretion of the host.
One piece rests are allowed.

Since there is no official USARB board meeting that we have ever been aware of to make this motion, nor, does any rule set exists to make make a motion through official channels other than sending a blind email in the hope it gets addressed. So therefore, we are forced to do this on a public forum.

At this point, what should be done to move forward with this, is for another club leader to second this motion here.
After that, it is hereby called upon the board to move forward with a vote, and have the board respond with individual votes, and responses listed here in a public forum. If no second, it dies right here.

I look forward to hearing what the plan in the future will be to handle these requests and motions in an official manner representing the clubs that make up this orginization.

We at our range will continue support the Spring class irregardless of this decision request.
Again, we are a club of inclusivity not exclusivity. We fully support the advancement of Benchrest, and are prepared to do so.


The USARB is an orginization that represents the shooters. Listen carefully. Move forward and act accordingly.


Kind regards,

Garrett

Phoenix Airgun Benchrest and Silhouette Club

 

[BobZ]

Garrett and Dave. Wrong number.

Here are some of the issues I have regarding this:

first of all, let's remember that if one group never sees a spring gun shooter, it does not mean there are other groups that never see them. Every region has different types of rifles.

Spring guns have a clear, indisputable significant point difference between PCPs, so much so, that no other variant of rifle even comes close. Not electronic, not scope power, not caliber, nor even FPE. This in its own right deserves it's own class.

Why is there so much resistance to this? There is NO skin off anyone's back for having this class present. It won't bother anyone who does not shoot spring.

Having a a financial amount attached to any class is ridiculous. How would we enforce that? "Please bring your receipts to the check in." There is not one rifle that is stock in Benchrest, not one. Everyone tweaks something. It is absolutely uninforcable. Think about it. Why don't we attach a finincial limit to say Open? Exactly, nobody would accept that. So, why should the spring class shooters.

Playing a game to gauge interest is no way to embark upon this. There IS interest. Recognize it. Move forward. Get it done.

Now, we are not going to cow tail, beg, and play games to an organization that is not willing to move forward with this. I am hereby making a motion for the USARB to create a Spring Airgun Class with the following rule set:

Springer Class
Calibers allowed: 177, .20 and .22.
Foot Pounds of Energy: maximum of 35
Weight of rifle: maximum of 20 pounds.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance: 25 meters or 50 yards, at discretion of the host.
One piece rests are allowed.

Since there is no official USARB board meeting that we have ever been aware of to make this motion, nor, does any rule set exists to make make a motion through official channels other than sending a blind email in the hope it gets addressed. So therefore, we are forced to do this on a public forum.

At this point, what should be done to move forward with this, is for another club leader to second this motion here.
After that, it is hereby called upon the board to move forward with a vote, and have the board respond with individual votes, and responses listed here in a public forum. If no second, it dies right here.

I look forward to hearing what the plan in the future will be to handle these requests and motions in an official manner representing the clubs that make up this orginization.

We at our range will continue support the Spring class irregardless of this decision request.
Again, we are a club of inclusivity not exclusivity. We fully support the advancement of Benchrest, and are prepared to do so.


The USARB is an orginization that represents the shooters. Listen carefully. Move forward and act accordingly.


Kind regards,

Garrett

Phoenix Airgun Benchrest and Silhouette Club

Guys,

Thanks for the input, Please discuss rules demands and votes on your own thread. This is my thread as a competitor and a Match director. I made a modest proposal for a test match to get me some info, to consider spring piston shooting in Houston. You both have every right, as I do, to hold an opinion and make demands and write rules to suit your club and your ideas of what a piston class should be. I do not represent the USARBR Board on this thread. There will be no response from the board I would bet, because this forum is not a place to debate and I doubt that you will see one here. Nor is it a place to shoot a well meaning individual wanting to shoot spring piston rifles in Houston. I hold a different opinion of what this class will be and we will shoot by my posted test rules to start. Please allow me as a competitor and match director to hold and express my opinion and seek out competitors for a postal fun match. If you wish to turn in some scores by different rules, they will be welcome, just specify which set of rules apply.

When and if the board considers a Piston class, input will be taken from sanctioned clubs I think 9 or so. 4 possibly 5 of those are competing on the Score Line. There is one club that does not participate in the Score Line at all, and that is fine as well. To my knowledge spring piston shooters would never be turned away by any Match Director. Only one club is currently holding piston rifle matches I think, and we will be the second club. I know from life experience that neither set of proposed rules will be the final ones. They will be based on the input from Sanctioned Club Match Directors to the Board and the Boards best decision to grow the bench rest game.

Please hold your opinions strong, as I will hold mine and contact the Board directly through contacts provided.

This is Bob Zimmerman and nothing written here represents any ones opinion other that mine.

Good ShootN' and "keep em in the middle:

 

[Dave Shattuck]

Bob,

I apologize for stepping on your toes and, as you will notice, I have deleted my comments.

The only reason for my post, as I'm sure is also the case with Garrett, was because you had posted something that appeared to be your thoughts on how the Class should be outlined in the rules, to which Garrett had made a few suggestions along with posting an example of his thoughts, plus explanation, to which I only added my thoughts.

Sorry for being so presumptuous as to think you might want to discuss more than just finding out if there might be any interest?

It's all yours my friend.

Dave Shattuck

 

[Pete B.]

Springer Match...have at least one!

Keep it simple then. Have at least one Springer Match whoever puts on the next Nationals. But also let us shoot the PCP match also and not have to choose. If time is the issue do just a 25 shot Match for 30 minutes. There, it got in, see the response and take it from there . No big trophy, a simple first, second, third mini metal or ribbon.( handshake will do me)
Reminds me of the years I shot traditional archery( and still do), I put in the enjoyable time after work and shot 25 arrows to keep my form. The compound came in and though I do shoot one also to help my offhand rifle shooting and follow thru using the trigger instead of fingers. They are by far simpler to master like PCP to Springers..........So, One short Springer Match and the dedicated PCP guys can sit back and take a break.Thats sounds pretty simple. thanks, Pete

 

[BobZ]

Wrong number Pete

Keep it simple then. Have at least one Springer Match whoever puts on the next Nationals. But also let us shoot the PCP match also and not have to choose. If time is the issue do just a 25 shot Match for 30 minutes. There, it got in, see the response and take it from there . No big trophy, a simple first, second, third mini metal or ribbon.( handshake will do me)
Reminds me of the years I shot traditional archery( and still do), I put in the enjoyable time after work and shot 25 arrows to keep my form. The compound came in and though I do shoot one also to help my offhand rifle shooting and follow thru using the trigger instead of fingers. They are by far simpler to master like PCP to Springers..........So, One short Springer Match and the dedicated PCP guys can sit back and take a break.Thats sounds pretty simple. thanks, Pete

Thanks for the post. To my knowledge there is no active discussion on a piston Class. In my opinion that will take place if several clubs begin the activity and have participation. It will be up to the Sanctioned Clubs to make this activity known by contacting board. In my opinion to consider a class at a National event and take away participation from the more active classes to provide some of a limited number of benches will have to be carefully considered.

This Thread is about Houston Texas Match Director Bob Zimmerman planning some local club competition for those interested. We have a couple of competitors who would like to try the game and as I have stated over and over, we are looking for a few good men who want to best our scores. It is more fun in our opinion compare our results with others. Differences of opinions on this should be discussed with the board. I will not enter in to any debate about a National USARBR Piston Class. I will be happy to hear of great participation from other Sanctioned Club Match directors. Individual comments should be presented at the club level and passed on to the Board.

Note single competitors with range access may post scores, this is a very informal friendly postal competition even if equipment does not fit the Guidelines. The equipment description will show who has what and how scores compare I hope to post a score this week end with a borrowed rifle.

I hope you will post a score. Tuning in a score with equipment descriptions will speak louder than a thousand word post.

Look for an edit to my original post.

Bob

 

[garrettkq]

Wrong Number Bob

Thank you for clarifying your intentions, as this was not clear in the original post.

 

[BobZ]

Thanks Garrett

Thank you for clarifying your intentions, as this was not clear in the original post.

I have modified the original guidelines and added a line that anyone wishing to turn in scores and equipment used, which basically says shoot what you have anyway you like. Specify if you used any thing that is not listed in the guideline *test*. This will show who has what and who had the best wind conditions on a given day. Scores will be more meaningful when multiple scores are posted. As to Piston Rifle Bench rest. I say we can get there from here!

I watched the Nationals video and it seems to me to be the best recruiting tool I could imagine. With your permission I will put the link with air gunners shooting other disciplines. Maybe Wilbur can post on rim fire and center fire for us.

I like your silhouette game and believe that fall when hit has saved the shooting sports in general Silhouette an Field Target. There are a lot of airguns in these two disciplines, maybe we can hook a few.

Good ShootN' "keep em in the middle"

Bob Z

 

[BobZ]

Scores Finally

Two shooters moderate shifty wind. Both shooting the same TX200. My scores were one point away from Larry Engle for the first two targets. Then wild things happened on my target.
A miss on bull 22 landed inside scoring area of 21 a miss on 21 for a minus 21 points with the penalty point. Then two unexplained 5s that went wild. Excuses, Excuses! First time with a Piston rifle since the 90's.

Larry Engle who never sits down to shoot, except to set a world record, under lever piston, on the Old IFP Bench game. His score (with nothing to compare except the last Nationals) was

Just 7 points under the famous Pete Berube's 668 11x with a FWB 300.

Larry's Score 223 1X,215 1X, 223 1X 661 3X

Bob Z Score 215 1X.222 2X ,189 0X 626 3X

How about someone besting Larry's Score

Wind Conditions were part of these scores. But piston rifle off of the rest an finding the next bull while the wind condition from your last shot has changed.
Next Score will be with A Diana 48

Bob











x 222 1X,

 

[BobZ]

Talk about bench rest awards!

I would vote for a big award for anyone shooting 75 record shots plus sighters with a RWS 48. I borrowed a friends and was exhausted before I Zeroed with a scope.

Some one suggested a longer time for Piston Class. I would agree to get started at local club matches and postals. Extending the time at a Regional or National match would seem to slow everything down.

A lot more difficult to remove from rest and cock, load then acquire the target frame and the next bull.

"keep em' in the middle"

Bob

 

[mbouchpcp]

Beat'em

Two shooters moderate shifty wind. Both...

Just 7 points under the famous Pete Berube's 668 11x with a FWB 300.
Larry's Score 223 1X,215 1X, 223 1X 661 3X
Bob Z Score 215 1X.222 2X ,189 0X 626 3X
How about someone besting Larry's Score

Wind Conditions were part of these scores. But piston rifle off of the rest an finding the next bull while the wind condition from your last shot has changed.
Next Score will be with A Diana 48

Bob

x 222 1X,

Not to brag or anything but I shot the following at monthly Phoenix Air Rifle Bench Rest and Silhouette matches. All scores were with a current production Walther LGV.

678-6 - July 5, 2014
702-10 - Aug 2, 2014
697 -12 - Sept 6, 2014
667-4 - Nov 1, 2014 (with those "switchy" winds we all hate).

I'm signed up for 25 meter BR at the upcoming Extreme Bench Rest competition. I expect to be soundly thrashed since I can't get my hands on the pellets my gun prefers, I'll just plain crumble under the pressure, and I think Pete will be attending. Let's see; can I think of any other excuses? Hmmm. Not yet, but I'm sure I can come up with two or three more.

I'm sure that a core group of dedicated spring gunners will be able to regularly beat 700, so let's all hand in there and make it happen.

The other Mark B

 

[BobZ]

Thanks Mark Great Scores!

I am hoping to borrow a HW97 this Sunday and turn in more scores. I will try to leave out the excuses as I explore this opportunity for fellowship in shooting piston air rifles.
We are making progress here.... 3 scores from Piston shooters that read this forum. Long road ahead. Thank you for sharing. This class or division as I think of it, will provide the opportunity for folk's to bring what they own and shoot for fun. No need for a 900.00 rest or a rest at all. No additional cost for an air tank and no hose and gauge No lugging that stuff around. From what I have seen watching video from you tube. Great great accuracy fired off of large soft roll of anything. We will try the idea of fall when hit to attract some plinkers.

Bob

 

[BobZ]

New LGU set up and test fired today,

Look for a score tomorrow. Great looking rifle. 17 ft. lb with 10.34. Smooth cocking but hard for me. 25 years since I fired a piston rifle, and I am working on a consistent hold.great
accuracy at about 17 yards.

My Scope is a little long and Loading was compromised. Dropped a bunch of pellets.

 

[Alaninga]

oh neat!

I've owned 5 PCP rifles and am very impressed the the accuracy and power they are very capable of. What else would you expect from a Lothar Walther barrel and super dry high pressure, sometimes regulated, air source, and toss in 'minimal recoil'?
Now I've also owned several dozen spring piston and pneumatic air rifles, and those make up the HUGE MAJORITY of my air guns owned in my life!
I've also restored/rebuilt/repaired air guns for an 8 year period which brings my experience in shooting and test firing of about 1000 air guns [maybe more, maybe less?].
The MASSES are probably more able to afford a spring piston air rifle, after enjoying less expensive pneumatics [Daisy/Sheridan/Benjamin/Crosman/etc. etc.].
The decision to buy a quality spring piston was a decision that took me me many years. THEN, after buying a Beeman R9/177 I felt as though I had cheated myself out of a very enjoyable air rifle having WAITED so LONG to finally plunk down a few hundred dollars to buy one!
I could shoot my R9 in the back yard any day or time I wanted, and it could be done in the 10 minutes before the 'supper is about ready' call from my wife. "yeah, juuuust a minute....'pop'"

What I am saying is that a match for spring piston guns would be GREAT! They are NOT as easy to get guilt edge accuracy out of, because of several reasons, both of the shooter's inabilities and the guns firing characteristics. However THIS makes it even more of a rewarding challenge to get very satisfying accuracy out of one!
I was called various names years ago when I posted results of shooting my R9/177 in my back yard range, off a bench rest. 1.5" 5 shot groups at 96 yards with Crosman Lite Premier pellets. I added that 'conditions' for this required about a foot and a half holdover, and not so much as a moth flatulence of wind in the air. Easy. My R9(s) [you don't want to own just one] was disassembled and correctly lubricated with the BEST available lubricants and the guidance of custom 'tuners' that had already paved the way of making these spring piston guns a PLEASURE to shoot!!
Fitted spring guides make from Delrin rod [lathe work, and I have lathes ] made a HUGE difference in the shooting characteristics of any spring piston rifle, space age lubricants [high percentage moly paste and lubricant tars] made even more tamed and still powerful air guns [ok, special springs, too].
Anyway, I would have to say that there are NOT as many folks willing and/or able to plunk down a thousand bucks for a quality PCP gun, and there must be MANY more that might spend $300-$500 for a very nice and 'upgradable' spring piston rifle.
ONE nit picky mention: might want to segregate single piston rifles from double pison guns,....maybe or maybe not. The single piston guns have much more recoil and vibration to be tuned out compared to the usually more expensive dual piston rifles. Just thinking out loud....