Acceptable group size?

B

bored184

New member
I have been pondering this question for a quite awhile and if I should even ask it. What groups should should a gun and shooter be able to shoot if they want to compete in BR? This will be my first summer shooting rim fire as some of you may already know from my other questions on this sight. (Thanks for all those who have helped me out and answered my questions, I know they are probably getting annoying by now.) After easter the gun and I will be spending more time together at the range going through ammo and finding what it likes and what it doesn't. The gun will already do a ragged hole at 50yds with me just plinking, this time I will actually be the mind set of shooting small holes.

Thanks
Bored184
 
I would guess that the top guns/shooters in the nation are probably shooting 5 shot groups of about .150 with most good shooters shooting .150-.200. It is really hard to say. These guns will occasionally shoot a .1 or .09, but the average will not be that good because they will also shoot an occasional .25 or .3
When testing ammo, also shoot for score.

Hope this helps,
Dan Killough
www.killoughshootingsports.com
 
bored184

Go to the ARG site on the Homepage here and look under results from last year. This will give you a better idea of what there aggs., look like.
 
You can shoot for score with the ARA, IR 50/50, RBA, or USBR targets.

http://ara.benchrest.net/ will take you to the ARA site. Or ask around, some people have good practice targets that are for score as well.

The groups I was originally talking about are under ideal questions, in a testing atmosphere, and indoors. I apologize, I should have pointed that out in my earlier post. Shooting groups like that at a match is a different story. To show up at a match and shoot groups like Fred Sears and Don Geraci did is outstanding.

Here are the ARG Records

SPORTER

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.159 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

FIVE 5-SHOT GROUP AGG - 0.2361 – DON GERACI – 03/02/2008
LIGHT CUSTOM

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.066 – RON LEWIS – 10/02/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.2122 – HUGH OGLE – 03/02/2008

HEAVY CUSTOM

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.115 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.1966 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

UNLIMITED

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.135 – DANNY MORGAN– 10/13/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.2370 – BUDDY MILLS – 09/17/2006

FOUR-GUN GRAND AGGREGATE – 0.2671 – FRED SEARS – 10/03/2004
 
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A gentlemen e-mailed me some pictures of his last trip to the Eley Customer Indoor Range. In the background of one picture you can see the records. The smallest 10 shot group is 8.9mm outside to outside. That converts to .35 inches. Now that is 10 shots not 5, and that is outside to outside not center to center. These are shot indoors down a tube.
 
Bored184,
The best target to shoot for is the ARA target. reason being is that you are from Indiana and ARA rules the roost in IN. I shot yesterday for the first time this year and shot groups to start with and they probably ranged from 1 inch ctc to 0.25 ctc. but shooting for score is the true test. . I know that you can find the target at the ARA website link at Benchrest Central Home. I don't know where you are located in IN but check out the schedule on the ARA site for matches and visit one. You will enjoy it even if you never shoot, and you will learn something, probably lots of things, that will make you a better shooter. Best of luck.

Carp
 
Dan I think Don Geraci may have broken two of those records this Sunday. He likes that ammo you sent us.:) I am scared he is going to confinscate my case after he shoots up his half case. Of course I will have to give it to him cause you gotta take care of your gunsmith.

dankillough said:
You can shoot for score with the ARA, IR 50/50, RBA, or USBR targets.

http://ara.benchrest.net/ will take you to the ARA site. Or ask around, some people have good practice targets that are for score as well.

The groups I was originally talking about are under ideal questions, in a testing atmosphere, and indoors. I apologize, I should have pointed that out in my earlier post. Shooting groups like that at a match is a different story. To show up at a match and shoot groups like Fred Sears and Don Geraci did is outstanding.

Here are the ARG Records

SPORTER

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.159 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

FIVE 5-SHOT GROUP AGG - 0.2361 – DON GERACI – 03/02/2008
LIGHT CUSTOM

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.066 – RON LEWIS – 10/02/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.2122 – HUGH OGLE – 03/02/2008

HEAVY CUSTOM

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.115 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.1966 – FRED SEARS – 10/02/2004

UNLIMITED

SINGLE FIVE SHOT GROUP – 0.135 – DANNY MORGAN– 10/13/2004

FIVE, 5-SHOT GROUP AGG – 0.2370 – BUDDY MILLS – 09/17/2006

FOUR-GUN GRAND AGGREGATE – 0.2671 – FRED SEARS – 10/03/2004
Click to expand...
 
Hey! What the heck.

Mr. Dan walks into our Range, scoops up all the wood, eats most of the food, and then strolls right on out of here.

And not a whisper about any good ammo.

Now THAT hurts.
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The whole crew is pretty shook up..........except for Pat.
 
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eddybo

Unless things have changed, records can only be established at State, Regional and National Championship Matches. Now for a new range record it is different. Ole Don is one heck of a Group Shooter in Rimfire or Centerfire. You have to keep your guard up at all times or he'll show you how it's done.
 
I’m curious. Can someone tell me what size the maximum group would be “C to C” that would fit in the ARA Bull?

Bill Myers in a recent post mentioned he had measured one of Joe Friedrich’s ARA 2500 targets and it was a .133” “C to C” 25 shot group using .200” as the hole diameter for the target paper.

Man oh man! Wouldn’t you just love to have the rifle “and” skills to produce a target like that! That's why I'm curious to know the maximum dimensions of a 25 shot group that would produce a perfect score with the assumption of POI and POA being identical.
 
.499 or less

The 100 ring on the ARA target is .500. Any 25 shot group, that measures .499 outside edge to outside edge, is properly centered, would score 2500. Subtract any number you want, it doesn't matter. Getting those groups centered is the hard part. I just try to shoot one point higher that my closest competitor, and don't worry about group size in score shooting. All these small groups, that have set records, are difficult for the average shooter to obtain. Just go out and try your best and get all the practice you can afford. Attending actual matches, will tell you more about your equipment and skills, than just trying to shoot small groups by yourself.
 
I am pretty sure that ARG rules changed this year it no longer has to be a championship match. I think the sporter record was broken Sunday also. Joe Bougard shot a .057 (I think) that is going to be hard to beat IMO. I wasnt there because of the flumonia but think Don broke the unlimited small group and one other. It is probably good I was sick at least my butt isnt sore from getting kicked.

You are absolutely right about Don being hard to beat in anything he does, including 600 yard f-class and IMO gun building. He is a real character now, wish I had known him back in the days when he was a REAL CHARACTER....or maybe not:)

Fiddler said:
Unless things have changed, records can only be established at State, Regional and National Championship Matches. Now for a new range record it is different. Ole Don is one heck of a Group Shooter in Rimfire or Centerfire. You have to keep your guard up at all times or he'll show you how it's done.
Click to expand...
 
Fred J said:
The 100 ring on the ARA target is .500. Any 25 shot group, that measures .499 outside edge to outside edge, is properly centered, would score 2500. Subtract any number you want, it doesn't matter. Getting those groups centered is the hard part. I just try to shoot one point higher that my closest competitor, and don't worry about group size in score shooting. All these small groups, that have set records, are difficult for the average shooter to obtain. Just go out and try your best and get all the practice you can afford. Attending actual matches, will tell you more about your equipment and skills, than just trying to shoot small groups by yourself.
Click to expand...

Thanks Fred

I was pretty sure .500” was the correct size, but ARA’s web site doesn’t provide those dimensions.

Also, I’m aware of the increased difficulties involved in score shooting vs group shooting. One encompasses both accuracy and precision shot placement and the other deals only with accuracy.

I’m only trying to make an interesting observation about what might constitute the accuracy level “only” when trying to quantify the potential of a rimfire to shoot a perfect score. After all, that’s what the original poster of this thread wanted to know.

If I make the assumption that .499” (The Bull diameter minus .001”) - .224” (The score plug dimensions used in certified matches) = .275”, then that magical number for perfect scores in ARA is correct for a 25 shot group.
Is that right? Please let me know if it isn’t.

Okay, if the above is true, we have one more problem.
No one is going to be willing to shoot 25 shot groups for determination of firearm accuracy or ammo testing.
I hope everyone is aware of the nature of group enlargement with the addition of each shot. I think we all know 2 shot groups will be smaller that 3 shot groups, 3 shots smaller than 5 shots, 5 shots smaller than 10 shots, etc.

Without doing a detailed statistical analysis for the group growth of 5 vs 25 shots, I’ll just make an educated guess which could be wrong and estimate that size as being somewhere in the low .2’s.

I have to go to work, so maybe someone else can jump in with a closer number.
Does this make sense to anybody or have I made any obvious errors?
 
Now you have it.

Quote:
Without doing a detailed statistical analysis for the group growth of 5 vs 25 shots, I’ll just make an educated guess which could be wrong and estimate that size as being somewhere in the low .2’s.
Unquote
 
This all assumes perfect indoor conditions or a perfect wind read every time. Neither of the above is common or even likely. Now throw in a bad bullet and you know why most of us are bald.
 
"Okay, if the above is true, we have one more problem.
No one is going to be willing to shoot 25 shot groups for determination of firearm accuracy or ammo testing."

It is possible however to overlay groups here is a picture of 4 x 10 shot groups:-


argoncorp


and here is the same groups overlayed to produce a 40 shot group

argoncorp


Don't know about statistics but it's a bigger hole.:(
 
Group size comparison . . .

Here is the way I figure it, measuring center to center of the two widest shots. If the 25 shot group was not perfectly centered and even .001" larger you would start to drop points or Xs.

Mr. Frosty:
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