A reconstituted spring piston BR class

M

mbouchpcp

Guest
My understanding is that a separate spring piston class was dropped due to lack of interest. Times however, may have changed.

Sixteen shooters participated in the 2014 National competition spring piston class.

Phoenix area BR events are experiencing slow but steady growth in spring gun participation.

Although spring guns are better than ever, they may not yet be a match for PCP technology.

There seems to be acceptable spring gun interest in FT.

I read that it is estimated there are 2,000,000 air gunners in the U.S. I also read that is probably a low estimate. I have no data to back me up, but I believe that most of the 2,000,000 do not own PCPs.

The cost of a PCP, air tank or pump, and upscale scope may mean many who might want to try BR, won't because of the investment needed to even try it absent a spring gun class where they can be competitive.

Inclusion generally grows an activity whereas exclusion typically shrinks it.

All the above being said what do you believe? Should there be a reconstituted spring piston class?

Please share your thoughts.
 
Nothing I will add is new. My latest question is why did the few springer shooters we did have stop participating?

Did they expect the same scores as the PCP classes, was the group size too small to keep their interest or was their equipment simply not suited to benchrest? Many of the high quality springers are former 10m rifles designed to deliver 6-7 FPE and shoot wadcutter pellets.

Inclusion is always better than the alternative but there must be positive results from these efforts. USARB is a national, sanctioning organization and must maintain focus on the bigger picture, rather than small pockets of interest, as in Arizona. Garrett and his team made a bold move including his group and that ended up with a great class. This is why match directors should have the latitude to run their matches as they see fit.
 
sgeorge said:
Nothing I will add is new. My latest question is why did the few springer shooters we did have stop participating?

Did they expect the same scores as the PCP classes, was the group size too small to keep their interest or was their equipment simply not suited to benchrest? Many of the high quality springers are former 10m rifles designed to deliver 6-7 FPE and shoot wadcutter pellets.

Inclusion is always better than the alternative but there must be positive results from these efforts. USARB is a national, sanctioning organization and must maintain focus on the bigger picture, rather than small pockets of interest, as in Arizona. Garrett and his team made a bold move including his group and that ended up with a great class. This is why match directors should have the latitude to run their matches as they see fit.
Click to expand...

Thank you!!! Asking "why" is a great question to start off with. Answering it could prevent reconstituting a class erroneously. It could also help grow a reconstituted class.

Big picture focus is important, but I'm not talking about a Phoenix only springer community. Review the spring gun results from the nationals and you'll see competitors from across the nation; with a number of them top shots in other air rifle or otherwise projectile related sports.

I concur with your thoughts regarding freedom that match directors should have. It seems however, that there is limited freedom as evidenced by the recent Daystate Airwolf (er, ah, ahem, ummm....) I mean electronic gun mandate that was decided. that most recent rules and other established ones do not appear (and I do not know for sure) to give any leeway to match directors.

I have to confess I am a bit afraid for air rifle BR here in the U.S. There are too many match reports that show only 5, 6, or 8 shooters. I also see match reports where nearly every person competing is shooting the same brand and model of gun. What about so called regional events limited to only 20 shooters simply because the range can't handle more shooters. The examples may be anecdotes, but they are anecdotes which reveal what may be a static or withering sport rather than an inclusive and growing one that pushes the state of the art and the skill level of the participants.

Again, you asked a great question and contributed some extremely valuable "food for thought" regarding whether or not a spring piston class should be reconstituted. I want to be fully clear regarding your thoughts on this subject since you graciously responded to my request for input. Thus, let me ask what your bottom line is. Should a spring piston class be reconstituted or not?

Thank you again for taking time to share information. Information needed so that a reasonable and sound decision can be made one way or another.

Best wishes.
 
I have never been very good at qualifying my answers but in this case, it is a qualified, yes.

Let me explain why. You want this class. At least 16 others would also agree with you. Another question for the whole group. Do you want to shoot on a regular basis, do you want to see your scores on the USA Scoreline or do you want a yearly gathering of your group in Arizona? Match directors and the new board of directors need to better understand what will bring shooters in and keep them participating.

Also, the whole group, if they truly want this class, should be heard, on this forum and through the new contact point, usarbbod@gmail.com. For every shooter, like yourself, who makes their opinions known, there are at least 10 that are lurking out there. Why, because they do not even have a login ID. The ones that do, simply don't jump in when their input is most important. When a thread like this happens, it may receive 1,000 views but only a handful of shooters express their feelings. This is not even as hard as voting, just send an email and voice your opinion. By the way, this applies to any air rifle that has recently been relegated to quarantined status. We need to support the new board of directors when they make a decision, knowing full well that any ruling can be reversed when a majority of shooters speak up.
 
Instant Gratification? and Interesting matches!

That I think tells all! Springers have there place, but alot of new shooters ( and old) have seen the simplicity of the PCP. I actually was bored the first time I shot a PCP at 50 yds on a calm morning and placed so many shots at 50 yds in a little hole. Just load, shoot, load, yawn, shoot again. Then grab up the FWB and do the same shots at 50 yds and make a 5/8" group( or smaller), cock the gun, reposition the gun, get it all the same to duplicate the shot , resight, shoot. Alittle harder to do, more variables, more challenging, you bet.
I then grab up my old Beeman R1 and proceed to shoot silhouette targets at the bench "and" offhand, a whole nother ball game. Alot of guys will say I just cant shoot springers. The shooter might like to "try" to master all, will shoot the Match even though he doesnt quite have it down. We cant win in every relay, but it is shooting them that makes A Match . ( shooting my Springer in LV, I didnt win but had fun! )
A Interesting Match has alot of different relays. Benchrest Springer/LV/HV/Open . A offhand or bench silhouette Match to 60 yds( or farther) using 1/5 size . An offhand target Match at 50 yds 10 shoots for score. An Extreme 75 and 100 yd . an Egg Match. The "King" Match. Costs a dollar , one shot closest to the X at whatever yardage, bench or offhand, winner take all. Lots of variables, mix it up. Keep it interesting.
My plug. First Montana Airgun Match here in Hamilton, Montana on July 19th . Nine Benches so only nine shooters first match to get it going. You see the match I am putting on, took alittle from the "Extreme" to make it interesting, also from out Schuetzen Match. Looks like 6 guys so far! Its a start. Thanks for letting me share. Pete....Congrats to Paul on your shooting!!
 
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Another great suggestion I wila ct upon

sgeorge said:
I have never been very good at qualifying my answers but in this case, it is a qualified, yes.

Let me explain why. You want this class. At least 16 others would also agree with you. Another question for the whole group. Do you want to shoot on a regular basis, do you want to see your scores on the USA Scoreline or do you want a yearly gathering of your group in Arizona? Match directors and the new board of directors need to better understand what will bring shooters in and keep them participating.

Also, the whole group, if they truly want this class, should be heard, on this forum and through the new contact point, usarbbod@gmail.com. For every shooter, like yourself, who makes their opinions known, there are at least 10 that are lurking out there. Why, because they do not even have a login ID. The ones that do, simply don't jump in when their input is most important. When a thread like this happens, it may receive 1,000 views but only a handful of shooters express their feelings. This is not even as hard as voting, just send an email and voice your opinion. By the way, this applies to any air rifle that has recently been relegated to quarantined status. We need to support the new board of directors when they make a decision, knowing full well that any ruling can be reversed when a majority of shooters speak up.
Click to expand...

I was hoping to generate enough discussion via this thread so that things like a once per year or regular matches, Scoreline scores, and the like would become self evident through open discussion. Your 1000 to 1 views observation however, made a lot of sense. That being said I'll send an email off to usarbbod@gmail.com. I'll also post something here asking readers to make their choice - one way or another - known as well via that email address.

Thank you for your thoughtful observations, questions and opinions.
 
Thinking a little outside the box here.

USARB started a USA Postal series earlier this year. Why not have a springer only event? Give everyone 4 weekends to shoot and turn in targets. They will be scored electronically by TDS and pictures posted for verification on this forum. Target #36 is printed on 8.5 X 11 paper and has ring dimensions that emulate the international target. All you do is print, shoot, scan and email your target file. Easy way to show how much interest is out there.
 
Spring Support

I shared my thoughts on the other forum, but will here as well:

Thank you mark for for your efforts in promoting the sport we all enjoy. As everyone here knows, shooting spring is the classic, hardest, and most respectable form of airgun shooting. That is something I respect. We all know that there is a large difference in scores when compared to PCP, and for that reason we will continue to promote a separate class at our matches. Surprisingly on a side note, I see the irony between the resistance on this as a separate class with such the disparity of scores, when the scores of "electronic" vs non is nonexistent, and statistically insignificant, quite humorous.
Mark, as you know we are successful at our range because of our inclusive nature rather than our exclusive nature. We have seen the crossover occur from the firearm crowd by way of springers first. Why? Because that is what they already own. Then, once they become involved, they grow within the sport. And that leads to the eventual ownership of other rifles. Some love and stay with the spring, some seek other, easier increases in scores by going pcp. Again my hats off to those that continue to be challenged, and in that consideration, we will continue to respect that at our range.
Seeing that the Airgun division at our range has blossomed from a few, into the hundreds per month with the combination of Benchrest, silhouette, 10m, and air pistol groups combined, we are proud to say that we are doing something right.
Soon within the next year we will be seeing a brand new Airgun building at our range, specifically dedicated to the sport. Exciting times!
 
Spring Piston, Match Rifles or Piston rifles such as TX200, HW 97 and others

All.

It would seem that the above two classes in competition would need to be separated. 600 fps with a 7.9 pellet at 25 meters would be a great challenge. Better Odds with the under lever and side lever piston rifles. with some higher velocity. in my opinion. It is possible for a small group of piston rifles such as the TX200, HW97 would be able to compete now in the Production class, if rifle scope and rings can come under $700.00. I would bet that a whole lot of barrel cocking rifles would qualify as the class is open to .22 and has no power limit.

I would think that in the equipment description groups could be separated for comparison of scores. Such as PCP, Break Barrel or Under lever or match. Many people think that an air rifle costing over 300.00 out of the question. I have thought that a slightly higher dollar limit would include more than just a few PCP's

I would think that the 10 meter match rifles would be best indoors.

My opinions....just thinK'N out loud

Bob Z
 
BobZ, interestingly enough the indoor matches I ran during the winter months here in WI, presented there own variables, 25 yards,mirage and thermal currents induced by the heating system as well as when it was blowing were not unlike those of outdoors. We did shut down the heating system feeling the vents were causing problems - such was not the case for the most part but the thermal layering was actually more detrimental. In our limited group was a range of rifles from the 7ftlb match to 20 ftlb units, not much score point difference inside. Outside the higher velocity has the edge at least as far as our .177 cal units were concerned. Spring vs pcp I can not comment on as we were all using either co2 or compressed air units.
 
Garrett,

For a spring piston class you would build, is there a power limit, 7 FPE, 20 FPE?
 
sgeorge said:
Garrett,

For a spring piston class you would build, is there a power limit, 7 FPE, 20 FPE?
Click to expand...

I don't find the need to have one. the higher powers cause greater recoil, and most find a sweet spot between 12 and 20 fpe. whatever the power desired the higher may have flatter trajectory, while the lower more hang time. it doesn't really matter.
 
I think springer/SSP/PCP match gun BR would be neat (7-8fpe max) but I'm biased since that's what I currently own. Just acquired a FWB300SU - it will be perfect for shooting at home too due to low noise and power level.
 
Inclusive is a great word!

As a MD you can bet, if a couple of spring piston rifles showed up at my match, I would quickly find a way to let them compete. It would seem that the first step would be show up!

No group of people in the US is more interested in growing the sport. "Build in and they will come" seems like a great slogan. Shooting as a group gets things started. I am sure that even if no official class exist now, that the MD would report on the Forum by footnote that some really nice guys and very competitive shooters turned out and fired these great scores with spring Piston rifles. That MD also would allow competition in several different existing classes by the shooters choice.

We currently have a lot of why not talk, from folks who have never attended a Scoreline Postal Match much less turned in a score, This class must start at local clubs with rules to fit the competitors that show up. The Sporter Class was dropped due to no interest with only a few scores turned in, mostly at our range.

A rifle may compete in any class as we do. We have 12 and 20 ft lb guns moving to other classes because they meet the rule, even though there is a assumed disadvantage. Perfect Example is standard HV and LV rifles shooting in Hybrid and 12 ft lb rifles shooting in Unlimited. The score is reported the equipment listed. No where in the rules for Hybrid, Production or Open or Unlimited is anything said about No spring Piston rifles.

The Production Class has two or three shooters in a class created to grow the game. Only a very few shooters show up with low dollar equipment,

I say with a big smile and in kidding mode..... The oldest saying I can think of is" put up or shut up" to describe creating a class for shooters not attending a sanctioned club.

I would add to that as politely as I can with a smile. Show up or shut up! Shoot an existing class and when the number of shooters is obvious I would think that a specific well defined class will result. The sixteen spring gunners I am sure are welcome at the Arizona Matches.

Just an old mans opinion! NOT POSTED TO OFFEND ANYONE. Or not to start an argument. All said with a smile and intended as an opinion.
 
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