A bullet question from someone learning to be accurate...

R

Rangerat

Guest
My first rifle, a 223 Rem AR-15 with 20 inch floating bull barrel. It is a fun starting point.
I can achieve 4 to 5 impacts making a single hole at 100 yards using a Nightforce Benchrest scope (certainly not all of the time). I am trying to separate the flyers I know I am causing from those that puzzle me. Currently reloading using Montana Gold 55gr .224 FMJBT bullets with jump about 0.020" (that long because it gives 2.260" OAL which is longest for magazine function). Base to datum is 0.008" shorter than fire formed. I have also reloaded Speer 55gr HPBT with similar results.
My question is: What is a good bullet to use for 100 yard practice to learn shooting technique and how to better group? I prefer bullets I can buy on line and not the exotics that are too expensive for my budget. I shoot about 100 rounds a week at the range.
 
Ranger,

A set of wind flags and learning what they are telling you will probably help more than changing bullets and I am one of those exotic bullet makers.

Bart

Bart’s Custom Bullets
 
Thanks Bart, I expect some day I will be good enough to tell the difference between mass produced bullets and the "exotic." I am sure I will be in the bolt rifle camp by then.
Actually, the most significant improvement I have made was after I installed a Geissle Match trigger. Others where I shoot have flags up about 10 yards down range but I have not been paying much attention to correlate flag vs. flyers, yet.
 
I know that semi-automatics need more room in the chamber, but pushing the shoulder back .008 seems excessive, and an open invitation to a separation, after several firings. I am not familiar with the bullets that you are using, so it would be hard to make a comparison, but for an off the shelf bullet in .22 caliber, a 52 grain Sierra has always done a good job for me at 100 yd. What kind of dies are you using, and what sort of rest setup? Do you have anything to look at to see what the wind is doing?
 
Ranger,

A good trigger and scope help a bunch. However a set of wind flags is a must for shooting one-hole groups. I am fortunate enough to have my own home range (100/200 yard). I keep 30 flags out and it’s still hard to keep them all together if the wind is blowing. Just a little change in wind can move a bullet a bunch.

Get yourself about 3 wind flags and tie some surveyors ribbon to them and you will be amazed at what you learn.

Good luck,

Bart
 
Boyd Allen said:
I know that semi-automatics need more room in the chamber, but pushing the shoulder back .008 seems excessive, and an open invitation to a separation, after several firings. I am not familiar with the bullets that you are using, so it would be hard to make a comparison, but for an off the shelf bullet in .22 caliber, a 52 grain Sierra has always done a good job for me at 100 yd. What kind of dies are you using, and what sort of rest setup? Do you have anything to look at to see what the wind is doing?
Click to expand...

I am using the Dillon full length sizing die on the Dillon 550B. I first deprime only using the first stage. Then uniform the primer pocket then size, prime and if necessary trim brass length with a Forster. I manually load the primed brass into the second stage to fill powder and rotate to seat the bullet using a Redding Competition Seating Die with no crimping.
I have seem some suggestions for 0.008" [correction made] headspace for semiautos. I will try less though I have been afraid that not enough could prevent the brass from seating all the way leading to a separation. So far, fired brass looks good.
 
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RR;
Check the numbers on headspace. If you are using the correct nomenclature .080" is a disaster looking for a place to happen. Imagine a case fireformed in your chamber that fits the chamber perfectly. Now imagine using the sizing die to bump the shoulder back .001. This is created headspace. In Benchrest quite a few shooters full-length size every time they load a case. This establishes a datum to shoulder distance that changes little over the course of the case life. Most are bumping the shoulder .0005 to .0010. If you are shoving the shoulder back .080 this causes the body of the case ahead of the web to stretch as it is fireformed again and again.The result is eventually a case head separation and gas in your face. Explain what you refer to as headspace. If it is .080 that's not good. BTW, listen to Bart. Shooting without flags is a waste of components and barrel life. Is the tune bad or did the condition move it??

Mike Swartz
 
Mike, see my first post, I am bumping it back 0.008 from fired case as measured with the RCBS Precision Mic. I mistyped in the last post. That should make the total about 0.009 to 0.010 accounting for brass shrink. Sorry for the confusion.

I am going to correct in that post to prevent further confusion.
 
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can i buy your rifle ?
if you are shooting one hole groups with montana gold( high volume production brass jacketed bullet) i want that rifle!
ok, having said that, i build br rifles on ar platforms.
i have competed in br matches, and it aint easy to make one hole five shot groups with an ar.

the long throat on most production ar's is a deterent to accuracy.
the large chamber on most ar's is a deterent to accuracy.
most custom bullets will not reach the lands...no where near them.

.008 is excessive resizing of your cases and they will die of a short life.
even an ar can operate much smaller...the only way to know is to experiment on your rifle. i use as little as .001 on a gas gun( not all my br ar's have gas systems).
my 223 ar br gun has a custom chamber for lite bullets and is only about a .25+" gun.
by the way my 52 bergers are doing 3400-3600 fps,26" bbl, just over 1" at the muzzle

like the guys have said....small lite bullets move in the wind, without flags you are guessing.
mike in co
aka
ar10ar15man

your loading technique has one flaw. depending on the powder, using the dillon measure is not accurate enough for br quality ammo. some powders do very well, but you should be weighing each/or using a br quality volume measure.
 
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mike in co said:
your loading technique has one flaw. depending on the powder, using the dillon measure is not accurate enough for br quality ammo. some powders do very well, but you should be weighing each/or using a br quality volume measure.
Click to expand...

I know many that say the Dillon powder drop is not accurate enough. However, I have never had any problems keeping the drop within 0.1gr throughout a loading session. This week I loaded 150 with H-322 at 22gr. I checked during the session and at the end. All measurements were at 22gr exactly on the Dillon digital scale. I am careful with the initial setup and measurement and always use the same pull and push when measuring and loading.

As I said in my first post, I can put several rounds through a hole but that hole is larger than a one round impact. I have never put several through a single .224 diameter hole. I did not mean to leave that impression but do see how it could read that way. I am also quite surprised at how accurate this rifle is, but considering it is my first rifle I did not know what to expect. It is a Wilson barrel and I am sure has the longer chamber.
 
I want to than all that are responding to my post. I am a beginner and thoroughly enjoying learning to shoot accurately. There is much for me to learn, both techniques and equipment. All your comments are being taken seriously.

By the way, I am not a young guy. I am retired and started shooting a little over a year ago, first pistol and now rifle.
 
rat,
the dillon measure uses Lee's wiper design. with some powders it is very accurate, as you have seen. with longer stick powders, and lite charges of flakes it can go all over the place.
i did not expect a single 224 hole, but 5 that rip a single(roundish) hole is in the vacenity of .3......quite an accomplishment. yes you could do one hole five shots wide for a 1.2 plus...not so good.
this is more correctly disscused on the factory rifle forum.
good luck,
mike in co
 
Sizing a case so the base to datum is 8 thous less than a fired case
is a sure road to trouble. A sizing die stamped with the correct nomenclature
does not always mean its right. If a fired case will go back in the gun, and it should, there is no reason to size one that much.
 
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