6ppc USA, and 6ppc whats the differance?

D

DanK

Guest
Whats the differance in a Sako S491 6ppc chamber and our Dwight Scotts Chambers? Is it just the neck size? Or is it totally different.

Does anyone know what the Sako S491 6ppc neck size is?,and the barrel twist?

My freind has been looking at one for a varment rifle, but I cant really find any info on it to help him out. Can you use a redding S die for it? or do you have to get 6ppc USA dies? He can use my redding S die if that will work.
 
Boy, that's a mouthfull of questions :)

OK, the 6PPC USA and Dwight Scott's 6PPC are quite different. (Although Dwight scott PPC's don't all interchange either I'm guessing.... if yours is built on a Redding S die) Different enough that a PPC USA will NEVER be competitive and Dwights guns will always be. 6PPC USA brass is made and headstamped thus, while real 6PPC's are formed from .220 Russian cases nowadays and are headstamped as such. The history of the two rounds gets fairly convoluted and there was a time when the Sako "balloon head" case ruled the roost but that was 30yrs ago.

SOOooo...... to sort out all the differences? WHEWWW! I've owned 6PPC USA's in Ruger #1, M77 VS and Sako BR rifles. I've got 7 different "real" PPC chambers..... I've used Sako, Norma and Lapua brass formed from 7.62X36, .220 Russ and factory 6PPC USA and technically they ALL can be massaged to fit any convolution possible but........ PPC USA brass will never take the pressure that true BR rifles operate at.

I would never try to shoot PPC USA brass competitively..... and BTST I'd probably not take the effort to make PPC USA brass from 220Russ cases because factory rigs just aren't worth it. No perceivable gain IMO.

Sako S491 necks vary but I'll SWAG that it's around .273. I have a Sako BR that's .272.

My guess from your post is that you've got a Scott built around your Redding factory die??? There's really no way for anyone to assure you that it'll work without trying it. Redding dies vary.... Factory chambers vary.... Peoples' ideas of what "works" vary......

Try it I guess.

If it "works" and y'all are happy then Glory Days....:)

wish I could be more help but with the limited info I can't imagine how

al
 
So I have a used 6 PPC and a mess of brass

Can I have a better story about Lapua .220 Russian brass? I have 24 pieces of this brass that came with the gun, I also have 50 pieces of 6 PPC Norma brass. Why do I need to load very hot for best accuracy, how come the Lapua brass handles the high pressures better than the Norma brass. If I load all the brass to the high pressures what will happen, will it just be that the Norma brass will get loose primer pockets faster? Previously I had been lead to believe that best accuracy was to be had with loads that were less than maximum.

When I got the rifle last spring, powder was harder to come by but I had some IMR 4198 and Hornady reloading data for it. Digging around before I found this place it looked like Reloder 10X would be a good fit and it was on the shelf at the local shop. I looked for BLc 2 because that what Glenn Newicks book talked about, but I could not find any. I have some now but it looks like everyone here is using VV133, I don't have any of that yet.

The 10X is working for me right now, I am shooting groups in the .3's or high .2's when things are going well. Those groups are half to a third the size of the best groups I had shot before I got this rifle. The neck on my rifle is 0.260" or 0.261" I would guess, fired brass measures 0.260". I am using 68gr. Bruno or Berger flat base hollow points with 25 gr. of 10X, clearly I could go higher. For a while it was support equipment and technique was holding me back, and to a degree it still might be but it is time to start thinking about the ammo more, brass, powder, tune.

Anyway, I shoot the same sized groups with either the Lapua or Norma brass but if I increase my powder charge am I going to ruin my Norma brass quickly? Do you really think that I will find a tune at a higher pressure that will drop my group size? Do I really need to get some VV133 and do I need to be careful about what lot I get? I have loaded different neck tensions and distance off the lands and don't see much change in group size but maybe I am not consistent enough yet to tell, what size change in group size is significant? Right now a delta of 0.05" could easily be me or the conditions, I see that kind of variation in groups with identical ammo.

Hey, I know that that is a lot of questions, I am really enjoying this rifle?

Tim
 
Boyd Allen said:
Tim,
Are you shooting over flags?
Click to expand...

"I am shooting groups in the .3's or high .2's when things are going well."


This level of consistent accuracy requires flags..... Even in the "when things are going well" condition........


Dank, the S small base dies will be fine for the PPC USA chamber.

cale
 
Thanks Al.. Thats is what I was thinking but I was not sure.

The rifle he is looking at is the BR model, he also just told me that 6ppc USA dies came with it. I said to him I was worried about was the brass, because there is no more 6ppc USA brass being made. And I was not sure if you could use 220 brass for a 6ppc USA. Good to know that he can use 220R.

He said he was just going to use the rife for varments, and small club matches to have fun with. He wanted a very handy light and accurate rifle.

Do you happen to know what twist is in the BR model? I am thinking its a 10 or 12 but not sure about that.
 
dtknowles said:
Can I have a better story about Lapua .220 Russian brass? I have 24 pieces of this brass that came with the gun, I also have 50 pieces of 6 PPC Norma brass. Why do I need to load very hot for best accuracy, how come the Lapua brass handles the high pressures better than the Norma brass. If I load all the brass to the high pressures what will happen, will it just be that the Norma brass will get loose primer pockets faster? Previously I had been lead to believe that best accuracy was to be had with loads that were less than maximum.



Tim
Click to expand...

Throw the 50 piecs of Norma 6PPC brass out. Necks are week and primer pockets feel like they were made for Large Rifle primers.

I just found a batch I forgot I had...should have left forgotten:rolleyes:. But you know what happens in winter with 12" of snow:(, you look for something BRish to do:rolleyes:
I usually turn 6PPC using three turners set at progressive settings.
The first setting K&M turner does not even touch the brass :eek:.
IMHO....I'm just saying...........:cool:
 
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I will be making some wind flags

I have not been shooting over wind flags, just getting started and enjoying the smallest groups I ever shot. I will be making some wind flags but I have only been shooting at 100 yards so I have been using other tells at our range to dope the conditions. I also have not been loading at the range to achieve tune. These things are forward work. As I had indicated I understand that my support equipment is holding me back. I just got a real front rest. I need a better rear bag. Wind flags, I can make cheap enough. A powder measure that is accurate enough to use "as dropped charges" is on the list. I am neck sizing because a full length die did not come with the gun and I expect that this barrel will soon be shot out, so I don't see the point in getting a die to match the chamber now. The gun was used when I got it, the Redding Neck die, body die and seater came with the gun. I am not sure what was up with the previous owner, the neck die did not even touch once fired brass, way too big.

Tim
 
My Sako BR model has about a 14.7 twist. Nosler 70gr BT's fall off the world when the temp gets below 55degrees at 1000ft above MSL and 30% humidity.

al
 
You might consider getting your own reamer. That way your FL die will always be correct for your chambers. While you are building flags, tie strips of surveyor's tape to the top of sticks, a lot better than nothing. As long as your measure can be accurately reset, it should be fine. Technique is the thing, and a clear drop tube of medium length, so that you can see what you are doing when doing a slow fill if you decide to try to get a lot of 133 in a case.
 
Hey Al.. I was looking at the Sako web site and they have on there the old rifle spec sheet that I found. Dont know why I didnt that before. But on the spec sheet, it says that the Sako S491 has a 12 twist barrel, so Im not sure why you have a 14 on yours, unless you put a new barrel on it already.

Dan
 
DanK said:
Hey Al.. I was looking at the Sako web site and they have on there the old rifle spec sheet that I found. Dont know why I didnt that before. But on the spec sheet, it says that the Sako S491 has a 12 twist barrel, so Im not sure why you have a 14 on yours, unless you put a new barrel on it already.

Dan
Click to expand...


nope, no new barrel :)

I've tried not to fire it too much because I'd like to sell it as original some day.

al
 
I was just loading up some stuff for this old rifle when I saw this post..

DanK... I measured my old Sako 6PPC (original barrel, BR model) at about a 14.5 twist... alinwa says 14.7 on his so I'd go with his measure - don't know why the literature would say 1 in 12.

When I bought the rifle, I bought 100 rounds of loaded SAKO 6PPC USA ammo and used that brass up until last year... (That's a long time)

Anyway,

Last spring I made 30 new pieces of brass from Lapua 220 R. (I used the culls at the far ends of the weight range.)

I made this note... SAKO USA brass is thin, the brass thickness at the neck is near .0101. Lapua brass is not thin, neck thickness at the neck (before turning) is 0.0136. I'd never advocate turning the neck on a factory gun, but in this case, you may find you have no choice. I turned mine to give me a 0.269 loaded round... If you make brass for your Sako USA from Lapua 220R, be careful - measure the neck diameter of the loaded round - if it's much over 0.271 you may see light scub marks on the neck when you chamber and and unload a round with a seated bullet... if you do, you'll probably need to clean up the necks with a neck turner.
 
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