6ppc F/L die without "bushing system"

U

upandcoming

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I am looking for F/L dies of proper quality but where the size of the bushing is "set" in advance. But where can I get this?

It is 6ppc by the way and I would prefer a .257 size of the neck.
 
Roy,

You can custom order hornady dies with the neck size you want. But, I can´t say if they work with your chamber or not.
 
6ppc dies

Redding makes them as well. I have had goodluck with thier dies.
 
u&c

upandcoming said:
I am looking for F/L dies of proper quality but where the size of the bushing is "set" in advance. But where can I get this?

It is 6ppc by the way and I would prefer a .257 size of the neck.
Click to expand...

What are you going to do when your barrel, bullet and powder combination says I want different neck tension to shoot tighter groups? A die that allows you to change bushings gives you the flexibility to answer the request. Part of the fine tuning process calls for testing options that gives you the best results. A die with the capability to change next tension easily allows you to do that fast and economically. :)
 
6ppc dies

Good point on bushing interchangeability and tuning. I remembered that Harrel made 6PPc dies as well.
 
abintx

abintx said:
What are you going to do when your barrel, bullet and powder combination says I want different neck tension to shoot tighter groups? A die that allows you to change bushings gives you the flexibility to answer the request. Part of the fine tuning process calls for testing options that gives you the best results. A die with the capability to change next tension easily allows you to do that fast and economically. :)
Click to expand...

First of all, I have no problem seeing your point and I can ensure you that this have been a part of my thoughts as well. But allow me to flip your question around: how many time have you experienced that changing the neck tension made your groups going from "OK" to fabulous? Meaning, being that little extra that tuning the powder, seating depth or the tuner itself could not handle? If the bullet/powder/barrel combination is really that picky I am not sure I want to bring that combination to competition after all, but of course I am very interested in opinions about this, because I see that my experience is limited - but for what it is worth I always end up with the same neck tension. .

But that being said - I do have a bunch of different dies around so this will not be my only option but it will add to something that I do not have at the time writing; more of a test of a few ideas I have that hopefully could lead to excluding one variable and give me more time on the shooting part. A fundamental part of the idea is to enter the upper load window and using a tuner.
 
With a good one piece die that has the correct neck ID, you will probably see an improvement in concentricity. The question is where is the point of diminishing returns? How straight does ammunition have to be before you can no longer see a difference on the target?

On a related matter, have any of you used a ball mic. to measure how well centered the IDs of sizing bushings are? Just for fun, measure all of the bushings that you have at four points 90 degrees apart, and let us know what you find. I am especially interested in two types that I have not measured, carbide bushings, and those RCBS is now making, since they have gotten into the bushing die business.
 
Boyd

We might be heading in another direction, however I find your view interesting. I have done what you describe with my Redding carbide bushings (257-258-259 which are the ones most frequently used), and I have found that my bushings are within a variation of +/- 1/10000'' (meaning a maximum variation of 1/5000'' for one bushings). Measurements are done with a ball-micrometer with a 1/10000'' accuracy. However, with the floating bushings - does it really matter?

As for your question of when the concentricity is good enough, I cannot answer that one, but my idea is still that if this works out well on the target and I do not have to worry about changing neck tension that would at least contribute to make my shooting slightly less complex, and for me that is a good thing. I hope...
 
Thanks for the information. Evidently, carbide is a lot better, with respect to concentricity of the ID, than steel or coated steel. I may try one.

As to one piece dies, I have tried a Hornady, just the least expensive, non bushing 6PPC, and the runout you get with this die is terrific, something on the order of a third of a thousandth or less at the end of the neck. There are however other issues. the reduction in diameter at the shoulder is a little over .003, and the radius at the point of the shoullder is, in my view excessive, as compared with my chamber, which I believe to be typical. Neither of these would be a problem for any other use, but because we use a small number of cases, reloaded many times, work hardening comes into play in a way that is somewhat unique as compared to other applications.

My latest daydream is to have a custom steel bushing made of steel that is hard enough to work without heat treatment. I would have it turned drilled bored, polished, and parted off in one setup. Also, I would modify the interior shape so that the unsized neck is captured within a very short cylyndrical section that would precede the lead in angle to the sizing portion. This may require a taller bushing, and backing off the top cap of my Harrell's die. One thing that you may find interesting, pull the bushing out of your FL die, size a case, with the normal amount of bump, and then check the concentricity at the end of the neck.

Also, I may get crazy and waste some money on a collet die, and see what I get with a two step process. BTW, one can change the amount of sizing on a collet die by changing mandrel diameters. Yes, I know, It sounds goofy.
 
Boyd Allen-bushings

I don't think concentricity is as big a factor as bushings which
are out of square. This is easy to identify with a 1 inch mike which
can be read in tenths. Normally the radiused face is ground perpindicular
to the hole, or bore. It is the other end that is generally out. That is the
end which takes the pressure when sizing. If for any reason the bushing
is tilted when the neck is sized, it will runout. I have made many bushings
and after boring and facing, I sneak around the other end and face that
end, not quite thru.Moving away from the back face, it is then parted.
Now you can undercut the back, un radiused side . That leaves the
outside of that face parallel to the front face, with a minor undercut.
You can stone the numbers stamped in the off end of bushings and improve
concentricity almost all the time.-
 
upandcoming said:
But allow me to flip your question around: how many time have you experienced that changing the neck tension made your groups going from "OK" to fabulous?
Click to expand...

When working up a load for my 6mm Beggs a .001" increase in neck tension made a world of difference.

As I recall Thomas [Speedy] Gonzalez used bushings that had .0005" incremental differences that helped shoot him into the Benchrest Hall of Fame. A little research refreshed my recollection.

"For his .263"-necked brass, Speedy Gonzales has a full set of carbide neck bushings, in .0005" increments from .256" to .261". He also has four different body-sizing dies, which allow him to choose the exact amount of sizing he wants, both at the shoulder and at the web." Source: Speedy's 6PPC -- The Art of Accuracy at http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek041.html :)
 
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