6ppc 40 improved

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skeetlee

Active member
I am thinking about having some fun with a hunting rifle of mine. I also see that Dave Kiff offers a 6ppc 40 improved reamer. With these two statements being said, i need to find some info on a 6ppc 40 degree improved case. I have searched everywhere, and i cant find much info. Here are a couple things i would like to know before i order a new reamer.
Has anyone here played much with an improved 6ppc case design? Is there really much to gain? How much different if any, is a 6ppc with 40 degree shoulders than say a 6mm Grendel? Will i be able to find a FL size die, or will i have to make one?
As most of us do, i have a healthy supply of old 6ppc brass, that would be just fine for hunting purposes. I realize that it would be much easier and cheaper to just chamber a hunting rifle barrel up in a 6ppc and go to work, but that would be as much fun. Heck who knows maybe a 6ppc 40 degree improved case with some XBR 8208 would prove to be comp competitive? None the less i think i would like to try something like this. Any info would be great. thanks Lee
 
The 6ppc Impr is known as the Firewalker and has been around for years. Increasing the capacity of the ppc case does nothing to improve its accuracy, in fact, the Firewalker is probably not as accurate, in the long run. Some guys with more time than brains (me) shortened the Firewalker to reduce the capacity, which also increased the accuracy, but that's kind of a stupid exercise, don't you think? There may be some advantage in a live varmint rifle (more velocity). Enough to warrant the expense? That's for you to decide.

Ray
 
You can't make 6BR out of your old ppc cases. But, you can make Firewalkers. And you don't need a new bolt either.:)
 
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Skeet, for 3 years I shot a 6-40 with the 40 degrees through the neck/shoulder intersection then another 0.035". This gives about 3.5 grains more case capacity than the 6PPC. Then for 3 years I shot a 6-40 with the 40 degree shoulder through the original 6PPC body/shoulder intersection. This makes a case that is about 3/4 grain less capacity than the PPC. This was Ferris Pindell tooling from 2001.

With the larger case and a 90 grain Berger BT I got a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th and aa 5th in the 2008 IBS 600 yard Nationals but it was a bit fast for 65-68 grainers.

You could turn the base on the 6BR and use it with your bolt. This is somewhat common.

The 6BR holds about 38 grains water and the bigger 6-40 above holds 35.5 grains water.
 
Jerry
I have turned some 30BR cases down so that i could use them in my favorite rifle, that happens to only have a ppc size bolt face. It is a simple operation, and i have a little grooving insert that fits perfectly in the extractor groove. I have found that i have to first remove the material from the case head, and then about .015 from the extractor groove to get perfect extraction. Works good!! On the improved idea, that all came about because of all the old 6ppc brass i have acquired. Most of it is about half worn out, and i wouldnt want to use them for a match, but yet they are still just fine for practice and hunting. I know i could just chamber up my hunting barrel for a 6ppc and be done with it, but i like most, I like to try different things. I can do most, if not all the work myself now, and i think thats part of the thrill? I haven't ever made a FL size die, but Kiff sells the kits to do so. It cant be all that hard to accomplish, at least i wouldnt think. I know a guy that will have the die hardned for me, so thats taken care of to. We will see. I am not 100% ready to do just anything yet.
I may have mentioned this above, but i will say it again. This weekend i have been relaxing, and just shooting a bunch at home. I got the XBR powder down off the shelf, and thought what the heck. I loaded it up for a couple different barrels, and it was out shooting the N133, and the PD 8208 that i have. hands down! The more i put into the case the better it shot. I wish i had more room in the case, so i could have added a little more powder. The weather here has been hot and humid, and windy as all heck. I would have though that N133 would have shot the best in these conditions, but that hasnt been the case. That stuff is funny anyway. one day it will shoot like nothing else, and the next i want to throw it away!! I shot some xterminator as well, but it wasnt shooting as good as the XBR, but it did shoot a little better than the 133. Tomorrow may be a different story? who knows! Anyway, i was just looking for a little information. No big deal! thanks for the help. Lee


Jerry
What was your thought on the 6-40 with the 40 degree ppc shoulder case? how did it shoot with 68gr bullets? We also have a 300 yard local match that i could use something like this for. Its just a fun match anyway. I would like to do something, just not sure what that something is yet. The only other thing is that, the 6BR just doesnt thrill me all that much. I dont know why, but it just doesnt. Weird i know! I love the ppc, and i love the .100 ppc short even more. The 6BR, i can take it or leave it!
 
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Good question SG. It might not? I usually retire my brass from comp use with around 12 firings. I bought a large batch of 220 russian brass not long ago for a steal, so i dont try to ask to much out of it. I did look at the 6mm turbo, but what i want is a case with 40 degree shoulders that isnt much longer than a standard 6ppc. Maybe .025 longer. If even possible. Lee
 
Run your reamer in long, and use 6.5 Carcano or 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer brass necked down to 6mm. A 2-inch PPC. Great varmint round, Probably not a point-blank BR round, though I shot 4 consecutive 5-shot groups that agg'd a flat .2 at 100 yards with 106 grain Clinch Rivers. I'd have shot another group, but by that time, I'd run out of bullets.

I got a new reamer, but know folk who never bothered, either reamer or dies. Eventually you'd need a FL die, or spare PPC die cut off to size the base. No need to push them that hard. I get about 3,100 with 105's in mine, no telling how fast they'd push 68s. Probably just like a.243, with less powder.

Edit:

As Ray says -- this is if it's your reamer & barrel(s) you want to keep using, rather than your brass. Also if you have one of the actions where opening up the boltface doesn't solve all problems, esp. with ejection (or extraction, with a Sako-type extractor. I'll only use a Sako extractor in a Right-Right -- never when the loading port is on the same side as one's face).

BTW, both the Carcano & M-S cases from Norma have quite thick webs, meaning long flash holes. Less problems with expanding primer pockets this way. I got a real good deal on the M-S cases so use them. According to some books, the Carcano is .005 less in diameter at the base, which *might* be a plus. You may have to polish out the chamber a touch at the base anyway, depending on your PPC reamer.

All this sounds a bit more complicated than it really is.

The final cartridge is quite close to a 6XC or 6/.250 Savage in performance. For example, I use 39.5 grains 4350 as my main load. Not a recommendation, you understand, just an order of magnitude. I can get higher velocity & use other powders, but this one, in my rifle, with good bullets, is very close in capability to a standard PPC. On a windy day, I would shoot it in a 200 yard Point-Blank match with 105s like the BIBs or C-River, and be disappointed if it didn't give a top-10 placement. Also a fine 600 or 1,000 yard rifle, like the 6-XC or 6/6.5x47 Lapua, but with a smaller case diameter.

It uses large rifle primers, which I like in a case of this size. With the Wolf primers, or the CCI BR-2 you're about the same as the Dasher or 6x47 Lapua with the hotter CCI 450 small rifle primers often recommended. Oddly enough, mine prefers a hot LR primer, I suppose because of the long flash hole. I use old Rem 9-1/2s or Fed 215s. Velocity is very consistent.

One man's solution.
 
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Lee

It's not clear to me, but do you want to use your 6PPC brass for whatever new cartridge you come up with? If so, then your choices are very limited. If, OTOH, you can use other brass as your parent case then your options are increased. There are several cases that can be used with a PPC bolt including the one Charles mentioned, the Carcano.

Did you really mean to say ".025" longer"? That's not much. Open your caliper to .025" and see if you think that will make any difference.

I'd go back to the beginning and take another look at the Firewalker (6-40 as others call it).

JMHO
34sowes.jpg
 
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Yes, What i would like to have is a 40 degree shoulder 6ppc. I dont think i need much more than 1grain more case capacity for what i am wanting to do. I have a 6BR and a dasher for the 105's and such. I will continue to use the 68gr class of bullets. I like 40degree shoulders and i just think a 6ppc with 40 degree shoulders would be kinda cool. We all go through this sort of thing, and i am sure this is what i want to do. I have no real reason to do so, other than i want to. I do think having 1 more grain of XBR in a 6ppc case might show some real promise though. My testing with the stuff, has lead me to believe so.
cheechao
How much longer is the firewalker compared to a standard 6ppc? Looks like about .075? If i can use my old brass for this than thats a plus, but if not, no big deal either. The firewalker does look pretty good. i will admit. Dave Kiff has a reamer on his web site that says, 6ppc 40degree. I need to call him and see what this is. Thanks lee

Let me ask this
Would a 6ppc with 40 degree shoulders, hold more or less powder than a standard 30degree 6ppc? All i want is a 40degree 6ppc. I dont need it blown forward much if any. Thats what i want to do. thanks Lee
 
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Lee

The Firewalker (6-40) is fireformed from 6PPC or 220 Russian brass. So the length is whatever it happens to come out. I also tried a 60 degree Firewalker and a short Firewalker (35mm). The short case shot really great. About like a 6PPC, so that didn't make much sense to me.

The CL on my Firewalker was 1.495". 1.160" base to shoulder.
 
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I had a reamer at one time for a case that was a creation of Harold Broughton. It was a 40 degree shoulder 6 PPC. He called it a .240 Coyote. I didn't play with it much because of a resizer die problem. I didn't know how to make the dies then, like I can now. I don't think it had anything to offer, other than being different.

Jim Carstensen
 
Harold's .240 Coyote was made from either .220 Russian or .220 swift brass. It had a 35 degree shoulder. He also had a .220 Coyote with the same 35 degree shoulder. I was big into wildcats back then and still have his original reamer prints and a few of the formed cases stashed somewhere.

Every so often Harold would bring one his wildcats to a Benchrest tournament and shoot it against the 6PPC , just because he could. :)

Ray
 
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jlcprec said:
I had a reamer at one time for a case that was a creation of Harold Broughton. It was a 40 degree shoulder 6 PPC. He called it a .240 Coyote. I didn't play with it much because of a resizer die problem. I didn't know how to make the dies then, like I can now. I don't think it had anything to offer, other than being different.

Jim Carstensen
Click to expand...

In the tooling I bought from Ferris had a chambering reamer and a sizing die reamer. As to the 40 degree chamberings, the larger one had 3.5 grains more capacity and would shoot a 90 grainer for 600 yard very well. It won 4 pieces of wood in the 2008 IBS 600 yard Nationals.

The smaller case had a longer neck since it moves the neck/shoulder intersection back. Ferris said this long neck reduced what he called a "turbulence point" at the throat. I started shooting this one in the 100/200 group game in 2008. The first winning for this cartridge was a 4th in LV100 at the 2008 Shamrock. The second event and a winning for it was a 14 agg through 4 targers and an 18 agg.
 
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