The Kaiser
New member
Read the article in Precision Shooting Magazine about this blown-out 243 Winchester. Anyone have any thoughts as to if this is just another wild-cat, or does it sound like it has some merit?
6 MM Super LR?
- Thread starter The Kaiser
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It has some merit IMO.
The 30degree shoulder angle makes it resizable, a marked advantage over the .243AI.
Other than that, it's right on par with all the others in it's size range (6-250, 6XC, 6MM Rem and .243 variants based on the .308 win sized case)
I can't see any real advantage over the factory .243 or 6MM Rem which both resize readily and can be maintained easily.
It looks cool. This is worth something.
The 6X47L will eat it alive with less powder.
opinionsby
al
R
rcw3
Guest
Al
Funny - I did extensive testing with the 6/250, 6XC, 243 Win, 6mm Rem and 6 x 47 Lapua and found they all had shortcomings compared to the Super LR (that I developed after shooting all those other cartridges).
No way a 6/250, a 6XC or a 6x47 Lapua can handle the 115's as well, consistently or comfortably as the 6mm Super LR, as it has a case capacity that allows you to use powders that are ideal for shooting them well without having to run right at max.
243 Win has a short neck which puts you into making throating decisions based on a particular bullet and then makes it so many other bullets are either way back in the case or way out and up in the neck too far (also a barrel burner).
I went through 3 different 6mm Rem barrels (2 Bartleins and 1 Schneider) and I will never own or shoot another 6mm Rem again. The whole case is based off the 7 x 57 Mauser case, long body with a too long powder column, a lot of body taper, long neck but mild shoulder angle. As cartridges go I never found it particularly accurate. I thought I had a bad barrel with the first, then the second shot just as bad, then as if a "glutton for punishment" I did a third to find the same thing - what a huge waste of time and money. Funny thing is I set all three barrel back and had them re-chambered to 6mm Super LR and they all shoot great. Some publications refer to the 6mm Rem as "obsolete" - now I wonder if there was a connection, although I think the 6mm Rem AI solves some of the inherent problems of the base 6mm Rem.
6 x 47 Lapua is a nice little cartridge (essentially the same as a 6XC but a little smaller in capacity - in fact the first one I had was done by holding a 6XC reamer short by .048") but there is no way it can and will do what the 6mm Super LR will, and you just do not have enough capacity to use the powders you need for the bigger 6mm bullets.
Al, I suspect your opinions are not based off working with the 6mm Super LR (or some of the other cartridges).
Robert Whitley
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C
Cheechako
Guest
Didn't Warren Page shoot the same cartridge in 1951? 
And then there were the 6-308, and the 6mm Redhead, and the . . .
Ray
And then there were the 6-308, and the 6mm Redhead, and the . . .
Ray
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Suspect what you will
but your lumping the 6X47L in with the other cases leads me to suspect that you've not worked with the small primer Lapua case. Nope, I haven't used the .243 case in this configuration and can't imagine why I ever would.... But I've used it in .243AI, and I've run the -250, .257, .300Sav and .308 cases through the wringer for quite some time now. As for the 7X57 case, I've only used it and the 6MM Rem as configured JUST to confirm that they too fail at lower pressures than the PPC/BR/6X47L family of cases. I shoot the 6.5X47L case in both 6mm and 30cal and in either instance it easily bests the .308 sized cases, in any incarnation.In the end match results will tell the tale.
If this interpretation of the .308Win case will cruise 115's in the 3250fps range with ES under 10fps and caselife of 50rds+ then I'll no doubt own one myownself because that DOES beat the 6X47L...... I haven't found this to be true of any large primer case.
115's @ 3250+
ES @ -10fps
Caselife@ +50rds
Does the 6MM Super RL honestly do this? If it doesn't, then how can you claim it "beats the little 6X47L?"
If it DOES, then as I said I'll gladly eat my words and order a reamer tomorrow..... I'll have found the Grail
But it's gotta' DO IT.......
al
BTW, as far as the .243 being a "barrel burner"......... do we get to hear about TPT here or what? Please explain how the .243 "burns barrels" anymore than anything else in its weight class.
As a 1,000 yard Benchrest shooter, I have used, or been around, a lot of 6mm wildcats. Bill Shehane and his 6/284s. And Bill's variants (.100 short, .200 short). And some of Bill's other creations shot quite well, too.
Then there were the Cass brothers and their 6/06s -- talk about long powder columns and shallow shoulder angles, the .30/06 necked down to 6mm has it in spades. Except, the Cass brothers won a lot . . .
And there was an F-class shooter (Wilde) who used a 6mm Remington to take the Canadian Championships a while back.
I shot a 6-Ackley for a couple years, it gave me a lot of wins, too. Identical capacity to the 6/284 with the reamer held in .200 . . .
I've played with the mid-size 6mm cases too - the ones where about 40 grains of 4350 work just fine. Mine was a 6.5x54 Mannlicher necked down, others used the Arisaka and the Carcano as starting points, going back at least to the 1990s. Think of a 2-inch PPC . . . These in addition to the many variants on a shortened .308 case.
And like everybody else who shoot 6mms, I'm beginning to play with the small chamberings like the Dasher. Too many people with too many wins to ignore it.
In short, based on 15 years experience, I don't think there is a magic 6mm chambering for long-range benchrest. I'll stick to my position that barrels and bullets are what win matches, not chamberings.
(That some of the cases I mentioned won't run through an AR platform is of no interest in to benchrest shooters.)
Charles Ellertson
R
rcw3
Guest
Al
Based on your posting, the 6x47 L seems to be a miracle wonder case and cartridge that beats (and makes obsolete) just about everything in 6mm out there, and decisively at that!
When Lapua first brought the 6.5 x 47 into this country, Lapua sponsored me early on to do a fair amount of testing with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua and I also did testing with the 6mm version of that contemporaneously with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. Lets just say my test results are a bit different than the results you have in this posting.
It's a great cartridge for sure, but I would not go as far as you suggest in its performance potential and I cannot regard "3250+" as a credible or workable velocity number in the 6 x 47 L with the 115's. What does the "+" mean after it? Is that like a minimum speed limit? To me velocity numbers without more means nothing, since the game is all about consistent accurate velocity.
Robert Whitley
Based on your posting, the 6x47 L seems to be a miracle wonder case and cartridge that beats (and makes obsolete) just about everything in 6mm out there, and decisively at that!
When Lapua first brought the 6.5 x 47 into this country, Lapua sponsored me early on to do a fair amount of testing with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua and I also did testing with the 6mm version of that contemporaneously with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. Lets just say my test results are a bit different than the results you have in this posting.
It's a great cartridge for sure, but I would not go as far as you suggest in its performance potential and I cannot regard "3250+" as a credible or workable velocity number in the 6 x 47 L with the 115's. What does the "+" mean after it? Is that like a minimum speed limit? To me velocity numbers without more means nothing, since the game is all about consistent accurate velocity.
Robert Whitley
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R
rcw3
Guest
"blown-out"? Those words did not appear in the article in association with the 6mm Super LR?
Robert
jghoghunter
Member
Can someone tell me what month and year this article was in? Thanks Jesse
OK,
so what you seen to be saying is that the BR and PPC cases are just run-of-the-mill too? That they would perform equally well if they used a large primer/flashhole?
Uhhh, the 6.5X47L case IS different........ decisively so? Invalidates the other cases???
IMO yes.
To put the new Lapua case into the same category as the others in it's size range essentially relegates it to "just another cartridge" class, invalidates it entirely.
Why do you feel the need to do this?
I guess we could also argue that if one were to make up a bunch of 6PPC cases using large primer cases they would agg just as well as the small primer cases.... I'd welcome the exchange as I HAVE made done this test..... I spent 10 yrs and a bunch of barrels to 'prove' that "intrinsic accuracy" was a fallacy and that case design had little to do with accuracy.
I was wrong.
(((IMO
)))The 6PPC was (IS!!) a Wunderkind!! Ultimately generating a REAL BR case, and now the 6.5X47 case.
Surprise Surprise.... P @ P were NOT just peddling snake oil. And BR guys are NOT just stupid sheeps following the lead of the snake oil salesman. Bummerdealdude....alinwa got showed up....
Now, to get back to your answer:
What in the @$#$%^ does THIS phrase mean from above? "To me velocity numbers without more means nothing, since the game is all about consistent accurate velocity." I specifically state three parameters.... velocity, ES and caselife. Why ignore the two important ones and make this "about velocity?" You're taking words out of my mouth Bob!
Regarding HOW I make my velocity case...... just read the post without reading into it.
I run the 6X47L at 3150fps and expect an easy 50 reloads without touching the cases. and under 1/4moa accuracy. I've run it up to 3250 reloading while I shoot but this hasn't worked out for competition because it's 'wayyy too close to the edge.
But 3150 is easy-peasy..... I'm currently shooting Euber 108's but the 115 Bergers are so close to identical velocity-wise as makes no nevermind.
Sooo...... to BEAT this one should really show at least a 100fps gain while maintaining low ES and great caselife shouldn't they? AND... it will need to show the same single-digit ES numbers.
I didn't say EQUAL it, I said beat it.
So,EQUAL it with the .243 case??
Not likely.
Beat it??
Not a chance.
I expect that your "new" iteration of the .243 case will make about 3000fps before it starts to wreck cases. With ES around 25-40fps...... because this is what a .243 case will do..... although using the straight .243 case I expect a little better ES, maybe down near 20fps. Ackleyfying it might pick up 35-50fps but the ES gets worse..... in fact, IMO the .243 case works best down around 2750-2800fps. And leave it alone.
Am I wrong here?
I mean, is it TRUE?? does lengthening the neck and popping 'er out to 30degrees REALLY make it a racer or what??
I don't t'sink so 'vato.....3000fps. That's where the .243 is.....
Regarding the inference that the short neck and 20* shoulder of the .243 make it a barrel eater.....
..... TPT here we come a hummin'.... Meaningful mayhap to a McPherson but not necesarily God's Truth.Now, does the new "wonder case" that ol alwina's grunting about REALLY work better??? Can he be trusted? Does the thang REALLY shoot so veryvery good???
Well let's see. (aside from the fact that he can't be trusted...)
It's already setting records.
NOBODY can argue that it'll easily push the 115 to 3050-3100.......nobody........ Shucks, you can blow the teeny liddle BR case out to get it over 3000fps.
With less powder.
Are these super cases defying the laws of physicks or logicks or WHAT???
nope........ small primer pocket.
So Hey Robert..... if you want to continue to deny the efficacy of the 6PPC, 6BR and now 6.5X47 cases you just have at it. You already stated that you were chosen to test the new 6.5X47 case and "lets just say the results were a bit different than in this posting."
Well OK, I'll take your word for it.
"Let's just say" that my experience has been different.
Pic below shows my FIRST OUTING with the new case......second day of testing. New barrel, cobbled-in chamber using a 6BR reamer and completely untried rifle conversion. Steenkin SHILEN barrel..... To those of you who've worked up a load methodically you should see some fun here.
I made some major jumps early on, found me some vert!! You can see where it started to come together, right at 3100fps. With 108's. I fired a pic thru the scope before it got dark. Since then I've generated pages of workups (and fired it in competition) and to say that it "beats the .243 case" is an understatement. This barrel shoots flat from 3100-3140. AND this is just hot enough to conquer the ES problem.(IMO
)opinions vary
mine is worth exactly what'cha paid for it.
al
BTW, I never did badmouth the "new" .243 deal.... did I?
Attachments
BTW Robert........now you've got me intrigued and confused...
Since jghoghunter was looking for the issue (yo bro, it's March 2010, issue 11 volume 57) I looked up the article AND your last article about the new Palma brass.
((((I'm really jazzed about this stuff!!!))))
But anyway..... I'm rescanning the article on the Palma brass cuz it was bothering my memory button and ka'TCHING!!!
I WASN'T going mad... nor losing my memory.
In your article on the new .308 brass you nailed it. You wrote of the fact that the small primer brass takes pressure better. AND that it gives better ES numbers..... What comes to my mind is this, your cartridge design really WILL shine if made from the new Palma brass! This will be an AWESOME round. pita to make up but it'll last FOREVER.
(But I'm guessing you'd already made this connection...... )
I just need to get my grubbies on some of that supposedly-soon-to-be-available-to-mortals Palma brass. You're on the inside track here.... where can I buy 1000pcs?
puh-LEEEZE???
Everybody's been "out of stock" since this stuff was a glimmer on the horizon...
LOL
al
(I spent 6mo trying to get K-P to get me a run of .308's with NO flashhole about 6yrs ago....)
and confused... Since jghoghunter was looking for the issue (yo bro, it's March 2010, issue 11 volume 57) I looked up the article AND your last article about the new Palma brass.
((((I'm really jazzed about this stuff!!!))))
But anyway..... I'm rescanning the article on the Palma brass cuz it was bothering my memory button and ka'TCHING!!!
I WASN'T going mad... nor losing my memory.
In your article on the new .308 brass you nailed it. You wrote of the fact that the small primer brass takes pressure better. AND that it gives better ES numbers..... What comes to my mind is this, your cartridge design really WILL shine if made from the new Palma brass! This will be an AWESOME round. pita to make up but it'll last FOREVER.
(But I'm guessing you'd already made this connection......
)I just need to get my grubbies on some of that supposedly-soon-to-be-available-to-mortals Palma brass. You're on the inside track here.... where can I buy 1000pcs?
puh-LEEEZE???
Everybody's been "out of stock" since this stuff was a glimmer on the horizon...
LOL
al
(I spent 6mo trying to get K-P to get me a run of .308's with NO flashhole about 6yrs ago....)
S
Stryker60
Guest
Al, didn't the small primer/.243 case concept fail some time ago, ala .22 Cheetah?
Stryker60
Stryker60
yup........ the CHeetah failed.
Because it had an .080 flashhole.
And, because necking the case down to .22 is pushing the envelope re ignition.
Lapua isn't stupid
I have quite a few boxes of the URBR brass that the CHeetah was based on..... I have no real use for it except to look at on the shelf. The only green-box brass I own! This won't stop me from grabbing the first 1000 of these Palma cases I can get my grubby's on.
al
EGG ON THE FACE!!!!
Silly 'ol me I just realized who Robert Whitley is He authors the 6mmHOT site over at http://www.6mmhot.com/ and he's one of the guys that got me into the 6X47L cartridge...... 6mmHOT has been saved in my favorites for several years!
Checkidout, Good Stuff.
http://www.6mmhot.com/
Sooooo, it must be the difference between hi-power shooting and BR, I've got no qualms with running hot as long as my cases hold up. And Robert's numbers over on 6mmHOT almost exactly mirror mine except that he stops 1.2gr below my BR load.
So I'm embarrassed, not RECALCITRANT, but embarrassed
FOR ME, shooting as I do, the 6X47L as I shoot it handily beats anything built on the regular .243 case.
Sorry Robert for questioning your experience with the X47L case! You've definitely used it, and your results agree with mine. Except that I've had great velocity results pushing the 115's. Enough to make me order a barrel just for them. I've only got a couple boxes so I've only shot a few groups just to check max vel.... but I've got a gain twist Bartlein in the chute JUST for the 115's..... if I can get them to shoot... if not it's back to the 105-108's. (I've spec'd the barrel rawther radically with a 10-7.5 gain.)
Now I may just find out that the little X47L case hammers the bejabbers out of the 115's so they're not accurate, but I'm hoping the 10twist entry will help w/spinup and change the pressure curve. (Prolly won't do NUTTIN', but I haven't ordered a gainer in at least ten years... ) And I've spent 'wayyy too much time in the past wrecking barrels with 115's looking for that magical .6 BC to give up now. And if I have to I can easily back 'er down to 3000fps and soften the tailkick down to .243 level.
Sorry to get all sideways on this.....
al
BTW, I don't like your reamer spec's over there
I'm a Queen fan I guess, Fat Bottomed Girls Rock.... My reamers are blown out hugely over your spec. 5 thou fatter at the base and even more at the shoulder. Maybe that's where my velocity comes from!
LOL
Silly 'ol me I just realized who Robert Whitley is
He authors the 6mmHOT site over at http://www.6mmhot.com/ and he's one of the guys that got me into the 6X47L cartridge...... 6mmHOT has been saved in my favorites for several years!Checkidout, Good Stuff.
http://www.6mmhot.com/
Sooooo, it must be the difference between hi-power shooting and BR, I've got no qualms with running hot as long as my cases hold up. And Robert's numbers over on 6mmHOT almost exactly mirror mine except that he stops 1.2gr below my BR load.
So I'm embarrassed, not RECALCITRANT, but embarrassed
FOR ME, shooting as I do, the 6X47L as I shoot it handily beats anything built on the regular .243 case.
Sorry Robert for questioning your experience with the X47L case! You've definitely used it, and your results agree with mine. Except that I've had great velocity results pushing the 115's. Enough to make me order a barrel just for them. I've only got a couple boxes so I've only shot a few groups just to check max vel.... but I've got a gain twist Bartlein in the chute JUST for the 115's..... if I can get them to shoot... if not it's back to the 105-108's. (I've spec'd the barrel rawther radically with a 10-7.5 gain.)
Now I may just find out that the little X47L case hammers the bejabbers out of the 115's so they're not accurate, but I'm hoping the 10twist entry will help w/spinup and change the pressure curve. (Prolly won't do NUTTIN', but I haven't ordered a gainer in at least ten years...
) And I've spent 'wayyy too much time in the past wrecking barrels with 115's looking for that magical .6 BC to give up now. And if I have to I can easily back 'er down to 3000fps and soften the tailkick down to .243 level.Sorry to get all sideways on this.....
al
BTW, I don't like your reamer spec's over there
I'm a Queen fan I guess, Fat Bottomed Girls Rock.... My reamers are blown out hugely over your spec. 5 thou fatter at the base and even more at the shoulder. Maybe that's where my velocity comes from!
LOL
S
Stryker60
Guest
Lol! I wondered if you realized who it was!