308 1000yrds???

1

1000yrd ringer

Guest
is it possible to shoot 1000yrds with a 308? I have a cz 550 with a lilja bull barrell. I have worked up some loads for it. I have been using 44grs of IMR4064 and using a serria match king 168 hpbt. Is it possible to shoot that out to a 1000 accuratly?
 
308

Not with a 168........they work out to 600 but for 1000 get a 155 or 175
 
criver

To say, "Not with a 168 . . ." is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

The current US M852 National Match ammunition is loaded with a 168 gr HPBT bullet that is identical to the Sierra MK. This is a load that the military adopted as a the result of Match shooters pulling the 173 grain bullets from the M118 cartridges and replacing them with the SMK - the so-called "Mexican Match."

I admit that 175 grain bullets, like the Berger VLd, makes a much better 1000 yard cartridge in the 308, but the real secret is in getting enough velocity to keep the bullet well above transsonic velocities. This can be done with a hot load and/or a long barrel. The reason the 168 grain has not done too well beyond 600 yards is that most of the rifles it is used in have short barrels.

To go even further, there are a lot better cartridges than the 308 for 1000 yard shooting. But it is adequate.

Ray
 
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I agree 155s and 175s work but if you get enough barrel length to get velocity high enough the 168s work well. Only issue with 168s is low BC.:D
 
i have a 26" lilja bull barrell. At 300yrds I am shooting .24 with the loads I have. But I know that after 400 te 308 starts to slow down and arch alot. So what lenght barrel will I need to shoot the 168s or should i get a lighter bullet.
 
The issue isn't the barrel length you will need, but that both the other projectiles mentioned have proven track records at 1000 yards while the 168 has a reputation for erratic results at that distance. This is understandable, as both the 155 & 175s were designed as long range shooters while the 168 SMK was developed for 300 metre ISSF shooting.

I guess that if you have a heap of 168s, it might be worth the risk of disappointment to try to push them along thru your current barrel, but rebarreling in the hope that they might eventually do the job seems to be a bad bet IMHO.

Try the 175 in that 26" barrel.
 
ringer

The 308 is going to "arch" a LOT out to 1000 yards no matter what bullet you use. Until the velocity slows to the upper end of trans-sonic speeds (1.2 mach) it will be accurate. It can be fairly accurate all the way to subsonic and slower. How accurate can only be determined by actually shooting.

This is all irrelevant unless you know what your velocity is to start. Once you find that out you can run a ballistic table to see what to expect at 1000 yards. Otherwise it's all a guess.

Here's a program:

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

Of course, you can make all of this go away by using a higher BC bullet like others have suggested. I have shot the 175 Berger VLD as slow as 2600-2650 fps with very good accuarcy at 1000 yards. Benchrest accuracy in fact.

Ray
 
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Long Range High Master Palma

Ray it don't work............. I shoot out of Oak Ridge Sportsman Association in Oak Ridge Tennessee (Host club for the IBS 600 yard Nationals) We run a 1000 yard "Long range league" on Monday evening during the daylight savings time months. I shoot my palma rifle (308 with iron sights) and have watched at least 100 guys over the last six years show up with a 308 and brown box loaded with 168's very few even hit paper.

If you watch the trace of a 168 it looks like a broken boat propeller.....

Good Shooting

Greg
 
Greg

I'll take your word. Hard to argue with real life results.

The 168gr SMK at a mere 2650 is still supersonic at 1000 yards. Maybe not Benchrest accurate but they should reach the target. The GI M852 is spec'd at only 2550 which accounts for most of the LR problems with it.

I know that the SMK bullets were changed sometime back and everyone says the old ones were a lot better. Could that be the problem?

Ray
 
NO 168s at 1000 yards

Ray,
The Sierra 168s were not made to shoot 1K in a 308!! I know I have shot hundreds of them at 1K and most go thou side ways. Friends do not let friends shoot 168s at 1000 yards..............Ask Sierra
Jerry
 
Jerry, Greg

OK, I believe!

I think our Army issued the M852 to our troops in IraQ and the 'Stans as sniper ammo, didn't they? I wonder if they know that it was not only inaccuarte but tumbling at 1000 yards. I'd hate to be the GI shooting it and not knowing it's limitations.

Ray
 
Ray,

I think that what Marine snipers have been using for several years is 118LR which I believe to be RL-15 over a Fed 210 loaded to 50,000 psi (pretty mild load) with a 175 Sierra MK. At least some of it is handloaded at Quantico. At times that they ran out they would switch over to de-linked MG ammo and keep gettin it done. This according to Cpl. Travis Facenda USMC, who shot a 1K match with us at Quantico a few years back and did very well with a rifle and ammo generously provided by Willy Williamson.

Greg
 
1000yds

Yes, the military uses 175gr bullets in hteir M118LR ammo.
No I would try to be competitive at 1000yds with 168's.
 
168s at 1000

If you want to try the 168s, Try the Berger 168 VLD. Their BC is higher than the 175 SMK I am pretty sure. My only compliant is I had to seat them in the lands to shoot well. Shoot them out 800 yds and they were superior to the 168 SMK by far in a moderate wind. I am shooting a 26" barrel. Haven't tried 1000 yds yet.

I agree, anyone goes with the 175s for a reason.

tiny
 
I discussed this M852 thing with some shooters on another forum a few months back and so I went back and re-read it. I was both wrong and right. The M852 was sent to the First Gulf War as sniper ammo but the AG would not allow its use because of the hollow point bullet. So the snipers were issued the old M118 SB which was far less accurate. By the time the AG determined that the HP bullet was not prohibited by the Conventions and approved its use, the war was over. Sierra then designed the 175 grain bullet and it is now loaded in the M118 LR Match ammunition.

Ray
 
There are better choices than 168 SMKs

While quite accurate at closer ranges, the 168's accuracy at 1k or better will depend on when they go transsonic, which is tied to their muzzle velocity and density altitude.

At sea level equivalent air densities and from shorter barrels Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain SMK ammo WILL go transsonic well before 1k and usually destabilizes. At Quantico, we often see them sideways, even as close at 800 yards, or completely off the 6x6 backer out at 1k.

With longer barrels/higher MVs and less dense air (DA 4,000+), the 168s do better and *may* stay nose-on at 1k, but accuracy often suffers anyway and they will usually go sideways not long after 1k in any case. In the same gun and air density, a 175 SMK with it's better BC will normally perform fine, in spite of it's lesser MV.

Guess which bullet strikes on my plate are 168 SMKs from a 26" barrel:
http://www.pillicustomhomes.com/eshell/213/1150yd168s.jpg
 

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Has anyone tryed pulling the bullet from the M118 match ammo and replaceing it with the 175MK should shoot simler to the M118LR anyone know about this
 
Even the .308W

Can shoot a spectacular group. Jim Clifford 1K Australian LG Record whereabouts of 3.7-3.8".

Shoot better
Peter
 

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i shoot 168 in f/tr at 1k. now i'm not shooting serria's, i shoot a-max's out of a 26" barrel at 2650 fps. they stay sonic at 1k. the best groups i've been able to get out of them is a little over 7"'s. mite be the shooter in this case, but i've shot the burger without issues also. seems like no matter what you do, the only way i've been able to keep serria's point first is to make sure that i don't shoot them at anything over 600 yrds.
 
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