260AI or 280AI for the edge in 100 yard accuracy?

V

VaniB

New member
I'm looking to choose either the 260AI or the 280AI to serve as a possible long distance target rifle and maybe for hunting. But primarily my main intertest and pastime is to be able to shoot slow 5 shot clover leaf groups at 100 yards with tailored handloads.
I was hoping that one of the bench shooters here might have first hand experience to know which of these two cartridges might better have an edge in the 100 yard accuracy department. The barrel will be a 26" Sendero contour, firing a 139-140 grain bullet in the 260AI, and the 280AI firing a 162 Amax. The 280AI or both will have a muzzle brake.


Which one is likely better to do tighter clusters?
 
The one with the better barrel, shooting bullets selected to do well in it.
"Better" here has nothing to do with brand, by the way.

Since you've already decided what bullets you barrel will have to like, you'll just have to live with what it gives back.
 
Any sane reply would declare the answer absolutely impossible...especially AT 100 YDS!
 
Please gentlemen, have patience with me, as I know I'm not in your league, and I don't mean to antagonize you without even hardly trying. You have to realize that I can't go ask this kind of stuff at Bubba.slays.deer.com You see, they don't know what ".25 MOA" is, and I don't understand how the hell their Glenfield 30-30 even hits anything!

RESPECTFULLY GENTLEMEN, I continue by explaining the reason why I chose those particular weight and style bullets is because they are amongst the highest in BC for participating in long range shooting with minimal drop and windage. A moderately heavy weight bullet is also required for efficient downrange energy on game. I believe I've got that much right in making my choice. (?) So far, do you concur?
The connotation that I got from your replies is that accuracy will suffer at short range. And so basically; I can't have my big long distance cake........and eat it at close range too. Is that the dilemma? If so... Ok then, would you venture to guess what kind of groups I can expect using these bullets at 100 yards?
 
btw,

Charles,
Those are my mentioned bullet preferences, but group performance on paper will ultimately dicatate what bullets this rifle will fire.
 
Vanib, Either one of those cartridges in a properly built rifle will shoot small groups at 100 yards as well as long range. The choice will just come down to what you are comfortable shooting and / or what you might have other equipment for. My personal choice would be to go with the 280 and go on up to the 180 grain class of bullets. You are planning on a break so that should keep down recoil. Note that a barrel of sendero contour is going to heat up pretty quickly and may start opening the groups fairly rapidly. The other issue with getting the tiny groups is that these bigger calibers kick harder and upset the gun in the bags much worse than normal benchrest calibers. But they are certainly capable of shooting small groups. You may be well served by reading up on the long range benchrest information to help you answer your question.

And, as has been posted numerous times, shooting with wind flags will make more difference in your groups than any difference in the two choices you have outlined. But since you don't have wind flags while hunting, the higher BC bullets make good sense.

Joe
 
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What it boils down to is that neither of these chamberings would be chosen for competing in 100, or even 200 or 300 for that matter. In a properly built rifle, either will probably satisfy what you want to achieve however. I'd choose the 280 just because I think it is better suited for LR game shooting..
 
VaniB said:
I'm looking to choose either the 260AI or the 280AI to serve as a possible long distance target rifle and maybe for hunting. But primarily my main intertest and pastime is to be able to shoot slow 5 shot clover leaf groups at 100 yards with tailored handloads.
I was hoping that one of the bench shooters here might have first hand experience to know which of these two cartridges might better have an edge in the 100 yard accuracy department. The barrel will be a 26" Sendero contour, firing a 139-140 grain bullet in the 260AI, and the 280AI firing a 162 Amax. The 280AI or both will have a muzzle brake.


Which one is likely better to do tighter clusters?
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I see one mistake here that many folks make...........they try to tell their barrel what bullet it will shoot. It doesn't work that way. The barrel tells you what bullet it wants. You can plan on shooting 162 AMax, but you'd better have a backup plan!

As far as the cartridges go, both have the qualities that make for accuracy. But in the end, as already mentioned, it will all boil down to the barrel and the load as to which will be more accurate.
 
VaniB said:
The connotation that I got from your replies is that accuracy will suffer at short range. And so basically; I can't have my big long distance cake........and eat it at close range too. Is that the dilemma? If so... Ok then, would you venture to guess what kind of groups I can expect using these bullets at 100 yards?
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Yes, that's the problem. The longer a bullet is, the longer it takes to stop yawing. However, there are some barrels that seem to let the bullets go with less yaw than others of identical twist rate. If you get one of those barrels, groups of .25" at 100 yards can be achieved even with bullets approaching 2" long. I've had some barrels in each caliber that have done this with bullets in the upper weights for their caliber. Let me tell you, it's a sweet feeling to be the owner of one of these barrels! But, if you just get a "normal" barrel, don't fret. If you can get 1/2" at 100 yards with uniform velocities with it, it will shoot very well at longer distances. You'll just have to break out your 6ppc if you want to see sub .25 MOA accuracy at 100 yards..............;)
 
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I think that if you do a little research, your will find that for target shooting at long range, that the 6BR with a suitable twist, throat length, and bullet selection, will probably be the best for the combination of shooting that you have in mind, and it should run rings around the two that you have mentioned at 100 yd.. Fellows have reported excellent short range accuracy with a well built rifle in this caliber, well within the quarter inch range. On the other hand, if you want to compete at 1-200 yards, depending on whether it is group or score, you would be better off with a 6PPC or a .30 BR. Have you thought about a switch barrel rifle? Switching barrels is really no big deal.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I think that if you do a little research, your will find that for target shooting at long range, that the 6BR with a suitable twist, throat length, and bullet selection, will probably be the best for the combination of shooting that you have in mind, and it should run rings around the two that you have mentioned at 100 yd.. Fellows have reported excellent short range accuracy with a well built rifle in this caliber, well within the quarter inch range. .
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That is an excellent recommendation. Of all the guns I've owned, my 6br improved is my most favorite gun. So I built three! They are all shooting the 95 grain Berger VLD and will shoot .25 MOA at 100 yards. The best one will shoot a tad smaller than that. And boy are they scary across ten or eleven football fields..........even knocked a few chucks over at 1200 with them.

But, the OP didn't say what type of hunting he'll be doing. If big game is in the picture, the 260Ai or the 280Ai would be better. That being said, I've taken a couple pronghorn with the 6br at 400 to 600 yards with surprisingly good results! But I don't think elk are in the same category!
 
Maybe it's just be being old and crotchety, but a dual purpose rifle for hunting and target shooting (in matches registered by anyone) is likely to at least partially unsuitable for one or the other. Hardly anyone wants to pack a 10.5 lb rifle around hunting deer, elk, or anything else but maybe varmints. A rifle that's light enough to make hauling it up and down hills all day long at least tolerable is likely to kill you from the bench if it's a .260 or .280 AI. A brake will reduce the recoil, but increase the noise and concussion so like everything else it's a compromise. Better would be to build two rifles one for shooting little groups at 100 to 300 yards or more like a 6 BR, and another to slay deer and elk which regardless what the magazine articles say doesn't need to shoot much under 1 MOA out to 600 yards or so.
 
All of you have been very helpful in giving me food for thought and providing me with your experienced insight for me to ponder over. I have planned this project for a very long time now. First, I mistakenly thought that the 7mm Mag would be the ultimate round. I soon realized the choice was a mistake, and obtained a standard long action rifle as the donor instead. I am now in possession of two donor rifles, and before possibly changing my mind again, this time for a really short action cartridge and third donor rifle, I feel inclined to proceed with what I've already bought. The plan is to have a custom barrel and reamer made into a rifle that will allow me to handload long bullets with a high BC close to the lands.

After eliminating the 7mmMag as a choice, I was very intent to choose the 280AI. But, I started to wonder if even with a muzzle brake there still might be too much blast and recoil to be able to enjoy 100 yard target shooting. Hence, now I'm having second thoughts if it would be wiser to go with a smaller case like the 260 AI for its lighter recoil and blast. The prevailing aspects of these two cartridges is that they both employ moderately heavy game size bullets, while retaining premium BC stats.

Anyway, you've all provided a wealth of info for me to chew on, as I'm kind of thinking aloud and trying to decide what I want.

Thanks again.
 
VaniB,
Do you know anyone that has a rifle in 7 Mag, 260AI, or 280AI that produces consistent clover leaf groups at 100 yd.?
Boyd
 
I have a .260 improved that was made to shoot the 140 class bullets. I found out real fast that it didn't matter what I wanted, the gun only wants to shoot 120 class bullets.

That being said, a 6br and its variants along with the 6.5x47 and its variants are a better approach for what you are looking for. Not only will they do just as well at long range but on average they will do better at short range than the .260 . The .280 is a step in the wrong direction. Imho
 
Boyd Allen said:
VaniB,
Do you know anyone that has a rifle in 7 Mag, 260AI, or 280AI that produces consistent clover leaf groups at 100 yd.?
Boyd
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No, but looking through the archives here and at that 6BR place, there are numerous reports of guys claiming their rifles are shooting 1/2" groups or telling others that "sub 1/2" can be expected. I've observed that this seems to be mentioned more so with the 280AI compared to the 260AI. But, it is seems to be mentioned kind of casually as they discuss their rifles, and I don't know how literal I can take their testimony. Some guys exagerate; To me 3 shots inside 1/2", with another shot or two at 5/8 or 3/4" being conveniently disregarded, is NOT a 1/2 group!

Ok, I do surrender the term "cloverleaf" . I hope 5 shots regularly at 1/2" or maybe even 5/8" is reasonably doable. These are pretty much minimum arbitrary perameters I would need to meet if I am to be satisfied with the rifle. And yes, I'm flexible to use whatever bullet style and weight that needs to be used to attain this accuracy.

My last concern is that a muzzle brake handilly tames down a 280AI to an enjoyable 20-30 round session.
 
The 280AI over the 260AI by a country mile.

Though neither would be my choice for the type of shooting you describe.........
 
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Suggestion

Satisfy your own curiosity. Build two rifles. A 280AI and a 260AI. Shoot them both at 100-200yds. At some point,you will determine which one shoots the best. You'll have a lot of fun and answer some questions about yourself and the rifle at the same time. When you're done,come back and share your experiment with forum members. There are few if any absolutes in the shooting Sports. Your findings will be just as valid as anybody's.


Glenn
 
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just out of curosity have you considered some thing more in the middle like the 6.5x 284. It has pretty decent short range accuracy. moroso at 200 than 100 very few vld bullets will sleep by then. PO Ackley once wrote he felt it would make a very good acrost the board hunting round, and im sure there must be an improved version if you like the steep shoulder versions. And on a side note if you want a high bc hunting bullet you may want to try the Berger 140gr VLD hunter before you realy sell you self on one bullet or the other. It is very accurate out of my 260rem.
 
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