.257, .264 or .284 caliber bullets with good BC and expansion for PD?

V

VaniB

New member
Any of you guys know of a high rated BC bullet that expands very well on PD or ground hog sized animals in these larger calibers?
(ie: a bullet that will not just pencil hole through)

Because I don't hunt, I don't get to witness or know much about the expansion performance of the different bullets available in the .257, .264, or .284 calibers that I might utilize for PD or ground hog sized animals.

I thought it would be fun to build a large caliber rifle like a 6.5 x 06 for example, which I could do accurate long range paper target shooting but would also double for some fun prarie dog or ground hog devestation.

The problem I find is that any bullet in these larger calibers that has very good ballistic coefficient ratings of .435 or more is not designed to expand on small animals. Hornady lists at least one single light weight V-Max bullet in each caliber, but the bullets are of poor BC rating of .365 BC or less. I might as well be shooting a .435 BC, 75 grain .224 cal bullet out of a 220 Swift which would recoil less and burn less powder, while providing the same or better windage and ballistics performance then a .264 or .284 cal bullet with a poor .365 BC.
 
If you hit a PD with a high BC bullet in those calibers, you wont have to be worried about whether or not the bullet expanded. A good 140gr vld from a 6.5-06 will leave any .224 bullet in its wake.
 
velocity is what makes prarie dogs explode, not bullet expansion. the main reason to use expanding bullets on P dogs is to reduce ricochets.
 
I've found my 6.5-284 doesn't make prairie dogs explode with 142 gr Sierra Match Kings. However, it does with a 100 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, but the BC is low. I've got some 140 gr Hornady SSTs to try next hunt.
 
Like Lefty O says ricochets can be a problem shooting pd's. From personal experience anything with the steam to drive a .25 or larger bullet very fast tends to have enough recoil to get a guy's attention after a little while. I've shot a .243 Win at pd's and it works like a charm for a few shots. After 50 or 100 even with 70-75 gr bullets it tends to start bothering.

Maybe I'm just getting too old to enjoy pain anymore though.... :D
 
Guys , after spending two nights and about 3-4 hours combined studying ballistic callculators, bullet design, and the forum archives, I've decided to just forget about a high power large-caliber PD "smasher".

Very simply, they just don't design a large caliber varmint bullet that has a high BC to hit dogs out at 500-700 yard ranges.....and beat the performance of the Hornady 75-80 grain Amax .224 bullet

Right now I have a 22x47Lapua varmint rifle in the works that was built strictly in mind to use the .435BC and .453BC Hornady 75 & 80 grain Amax bullets. This aprox 22-250 sized brass case shooting either the 75 or 80 grain Amax will make the performance of a 25-06 or .264-06 cartridge look really inferior......and needless.

The only varmint bullets available in a 257, 264, or 284 are going to be just one light bullet offered by the manufacturers made with varmints in mind, at a poor BC. (for example Hornady offers a single 257 cal. 75 grain Vmax with a .290 BC)

After my research, I've concluded that there's no sense in making a $2,500 custom rifle that will produce all that recoil and burn all that powder from a 30-06 sized case, but not provide the minimal wind drift and bullet drop at 600 yards as my 22x47Lapua rifle is capable of.

Now....if you guys are using these larger caliber cartridges to shoot larger sized animals at long ranges or to do long distance target shooting, then that's a whole different story and will work just fine.
 
Larry Elliott said:
Like Lefty O says ricochets can be a problem shooting pd's. From personal experience anything with the steam to drive a .25 or larger bullet very fast tends to have enough recoil to get a guy's attention after a little while. I've shot a .243 Win at pd's and it works like a charm for a few shots. After 50 or 100 even with 70-75 gr bullets it tends to start bothering.

Maybe I'm just getting too old to enjoy pain anymore though.... :D
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Agreed. Larry, I really wanted to build such a rifle for minimal PD shooting, and would likely use it more for shooting paper at the range.

I thought after shooting my 20 Tac and 22x47 Lapua rifle for most of a PD or wood chuck hunt, I could bring out this Big Bertha Howitzer just for a few shots for the change of pace and the fun of it. If they made the right bullet I need, it would be a change of pace to hit a PD or two at 600-700 yards and watch them blow up. You're right though about the power and recoil, that it is not something I'd want to use and rely on for more then an amusing short time and limited shooting. This was going to be not even a second rifle, but a "third" rifle on such a hunt..
 
Why do you need a high BC bullet for 600 yards? I shoot the 71grain Berger 6mm at 3500 fps and it has a BC of only .318. If I read the wind and yardage correctly I hit them. If I don't, I miss. Surley you don't want to hit every PD that you aim at, do you? Takes the fun out after a while.:rolleyes:

Ray
 
Cheechako said:
Why do you need a high BC bullet for 600 yards? I shoot the 71grain Berger 6mm at 3500 fps and it has a BC of only .318. If I read the wind and yardage correctly I hit them. If I don't, I miss. Surley you don't want to hit every PD that you aim at, do you? Takes the fun out after a while.:rolleyes:

Ray
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As I have concluded and mentioned in my post #6 above,
it makes no sense to set out to build a $2,500 large caliber powerfull rifle intended only for PD or woodchuck at long range, if the available bullets can't perform as well as the available 224 cal 75 Amax bullet of my 22x47L.
(and paper target shooting too.)

Zeroed in for 400 yards, a 75 grain .224 Amax bullet will leave the muzzle at 3,350 FPS and arrive at a PD at 400 yards with only 8" of wind deflection. At 500 yards it has only -12.5" of drop. (a .224 cal 80Amax at only 3,250fps muzzle velocity has even better stats then that!)

This was precisely the reason I passed up a 6x47L, and chose the 22x47L instead. (I've got a crap load of 243 bullets I already bought before I cancelled the 6x47L project and switched to the 22x47L)The 87 & 105 grain Vmax 243 cal bullets just couldn't keep up with the superior ballistics of the .224 Amax. I purposely backed off of even higher muzzle velocities of about 100FPS to produce less severe barel wear.(....which would have produced even more impressive down-range stats.)

Check and compare for yourself;
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

I used 8MPH wind, zero target movement, 75 degree temp, 78% humidity, and 29.53 pressure, zeroed in at 400 yards to arrive at those stats.

I think a lot of guys already have a large caliber rifle, And so they reload accordingly to be able to use it for PD shooting. That makes perfect sense to utilize what you already have.

But.... for me to purposely go out and build an expensive large caliber rifle to serve as a long distance PD rifle when it will not perform as well as .224 cal barrel would be foolish.

Again....you've got to keep in mind that I don't EVER intend to use the rifle for anything other then paper shooting, or animals any larger then PD or wood chuck.
 
Shooting prairie dogs in South Dakota is a ton of fun but also is very different from paper shooting or ground hog/woodchuck hunting IMHO. We shoot the pd's from a heavy rotating benchs with benchrest equipment, the action is fast, round count high and barrels get hot quickly, I typically shoot 30-50 rounds and put that rifle on the cleaning bench for a cleaning-brush/soak. As a bit of time passes there will be four rifles cleaning and one shooting. This past couple years I took 9 or 10 rifles on each trip, all 20 cal except a lone 22BR once. I long ago gave up on long range big guns, too much heat generated means I can only shoot 5 to 10 times then wait for the barrel to cool. I too found that the 90/95grn, even the 105Amax in 6mm just don't give the pd's the air time/showtime that a light .204 or .224 will. It also takes a muzzlebrake or a leaded stock to tame the recoil enough to see your hits. I can tell a noticeable difference between between a 40gr, 50 and 55 bullet in a .224.

I'm interested in your experience with the 75gr Amax, do they move the 'dogs or will they just fall/drop when hit with the 75Amax? Can you compare (red mist) it to a 50gr .224 Vmax bullet or even a 39gr BlitzKing out of your 20Tac?
Thanks, Larry
 
Roger rodbolt said:
Shooting prairie dogs in South Dakota is a ton of fun but also is very different from paper shooting or ground hog/woodchuck hunting IMHO. We shoot the pd's from a heavy rotating benchs with benchrest equipment, the action is fast, round count high and barrels get hot quickly, I typically shoot 30-50 rounds and put that rifle on the cleaning bench for a cleaning-brush/soak. As a bit of time passes there will be four rifles cleaning and one shooting. This past couple years I took 9 or 10 rifles on each trip, all 20 cal except a lone 22BR once. I long ago gave up on long range big guns, too much heat generated means I can only shoot 5 to 10 times then wait for the barrel to cool. I too found that the 90/95grn, even the 105Amax in 6mm just don't give the pd's the air time/showtime that a light .204 or .224 will. It also takes a muzzlebrake or a leaded stock to tame the recoil enough to see your hits. I can tell a noticeable difference between between a 40gr, 50 and 55 bullet in a .224.

I'm interested in your experience with the 75gr Amax, do they move the 'dogs or will they just fall/drop when hit with the 75Amax? Can you compare (red mist) it to a 50gr .224 Vmax bullet or even a 39gr BlitzKing out of your 20Tac?
Thanks, Larry
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I agree with most everything you say. But, my shooting style would not change a whole lot from the public range....that being I am a very slow and calculating shooter. I will not have as many shots fired out of any single barrel during a PD hunt as most folks usually do.... so I don't have to worry about overhating and barrel wear as much. It's not uncommon for me to take an hour to handload 5-6 rounds, and spend 45 minutes at the range firing them off. I just take pleasure in the ultimate sniper shot at paper or PD!

Larry, I don't have personal hunting experience with a 75 Amax. But, I have heard numerous first hand accounts by those who use it on varmints that it can be as explosive as a Vmax, (explosive at the 3,350 FPS I intend to use it). The fact that a light skinned animal like a crow can be busted into a pile of feathers is very promising. That is just one example of what I have seen and heard. The down side is that it looks like the reliability of this explosive performance can vary from lot to lot. It is a very thin jacketed round suitable for precision target shooting which I will spend 99% of my time doing anyway. So, I am willing to take my chance on it (and the 80Amax) and base my 17 lb 1-8.25 twist rifle around it.

I suppose there is nothing to stop me from using a lighter and lower BC rated .224 Vmax bullet or Nosler BT through it as well. (there's my guaranteed "explosive" performance, albeit at much poorer down range ballistics)

To make the point about comparing the 204 cal VS the 75 grain Amax:
I have a 20Tac that I shoot 39gr BK for target. It shoots 5 shot 1/4" groups at 3,820 FPS on paper. I just love that rifle. It will be my primary PD rifle for out to 300 yards. But, I chose not to build any more 20 cal rifles for PD shooting beyond that distance. That's when I set out to build my 2nd PD rifle in the 22x47L. It's at these ranges that the "air-time" you mention requires more carefull planning and deliberate ballistics. I summized that while my 39 grain 20 cal Sierra is doing 2,464 fps and 528 lbs of energy zeroed out at 400 yards, the 22x47L 75 Grain Amax bullet will be arriving to the PD at 2,498 fps, and 1039 lbs of energy at 400 yards. I haven't tried it yet, but it just seems logical that the 224 bullet is going to cause a better PD show then the 204.....you think? BTW, the windage of the .204 39 grain bullet at 400 yards is 11" with an 8mph wind, while the 75 Amax is 8". At 500 yards the bullets have identical drop, but the 20 gets blowning in the wind out an extra 5" off to the side compared to the 75 bullet. As for further 600-700 yardage, the positive stats of 75 or 80 grain .224 bullet pull even further away from the 204 cal.

As you probably know, the 39 grain 204 bullet can be made to shoot faster for better stats, but so too can the 224 75-80 grain bullet.

As for the .243 cal you mentioned; Yep, I just didn't see the need to build a rifle around an 87 or 105 grain Vmax 243 bullet that would be moving 175-200 FPS slower at 400-500 yards, and recoiling heavier, while the trajectory and windage were about the same as the 75-80 grain 224 bullet.
 
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Have you done any prairie dog shooting? I little first hand experience goes a long way. I sometimes have no idea what is over yonder hill and I want my bullets to blow up on contact. Some of those cows are pricey. Kenny
 
Not only are cattle expensive, you get to pay and the rancher gets the beef, but you've also lost a place to shoot if you nail a cow or tractor or anything else but the ground or prairie dogs. Unless you nail a coyote that's out wandering around looking for lunch.
 
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VaniB,

I agree with your statement give up on building a dedicated cannon - stick with your 20TAC and when its soaking during cleaning get something larger out for a change or a bit of 'daftness'. The big calibres knock you around too much for a pain free day. I would rather shoot my 204 at long range rabbits but do get a 300 win mag out for a change and shots up to 800 yard. One benefit of the larger bullets is that you can call your misses easier?

Rich.K
 
A little off topic...

I have hunted prarrie dogs several times. The one common thing I found was semi flat terrain. When hunting with a centerfire rifle it is the shooters responsibility to know where his bullets are ending up. Once while prarrie dog shooting in Kansas my 3 buddies and I noticed two vans that kept themselves in down range view of our shooting. We moved so I bullets would not ricochete in their direction and they kept moving into our bullets down range flight path. We started watching them through our spotting scopes and noticed they were watching us through spotting scopes. I drove over to where they were and found out what they were doing. They were USF&W Agents that were watching us to see if we were shooting Owls, or black footed ferrets. I asked them to come observe us from behind our line of fire. They declined the offer and left. I would have estimated they were 1200-1400 yards from where we were shooting from. We were shooting .223s and 6mms all with the ability to reach them with enough energy to hurt or kill them. It is my personal belief that prarrie dogs should not be shot with bullets larger than 6mm and only with super explosive bullets. Rifles with bullets heavier than 6mm are not needed to harvest prarrie dogs and only present a danger to bystanders and livestock.

Just my opinion

Rustystud
 
Desired varmint effect

I've got to add to this interesting post. I have a 1:14" Hart .22-250 AI that I shoot 50 grn. Nosler BTs out of @4150 ft/sec. Many groundhogs have succumbed to this lethal combo.. I purchased two 1:8" Kreigers to have chambered by my gunsmith with the same reamer that did my 1:14"; incidentally it is a .250 nd.. One of the Kreigers was used and the other was brand new. I had my gunsmith throat the used barrel for the 69grn. Sierra while cutting a new chamber. I had the brand new barrel throated for the 80grn. bullets. At any rate I had a fairly good number of rds. loaded with the 50grn. Nosler pill that were intended for my 1:14" Hart. I decided to try them in the 1:8" Kreiger throated for the 69grn. Sierras on rogue crows.

I hit a crow at 200 yds. with this combo. and all I saw was a puff of black; that's it! For one fraction of a second, an exploding eider down puff of black appeared where the crow had been a micro second before. The rotational explosive effect of that hit actually made me laugh. Upon examination on the scene later, all I found was a crow foot; period. It was late in the season but trust me when I say this same combo. will be used on the truculent eastern marmota monax, a.k.a. groundhog this coming summer. I would imagine this combo. would absolutely shred a prarie dog into interstellar matter. I have to agree with the posters above that the .224 projectiles loaded with the right pills are superior for whacking light skinned varmints. I use a .243 AI in different twists, a 6mm BR in different twists, a .25-06, a .308 in different twists on varmints, but the .224 cal. is the one I always defer to. I average 50 to 100 groundhogs a season and don't keep track of crows but the number is high.

Lou Baccino
 
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artist said:
I shoot a customized Savage chambered in .257WBY. With a 30" Hart 1:12 twist heavy barrel, it shoots Sierra 100grHPBT Match bullets at at muzzle velocity of 3940fps. Believe you me, expantion is not an issue and when the Sierra's first starting impacting gophers, I thought I was missing because upon inspection there was simply nothing left of them.:eek:
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Artist,
I don't have a Sierra book, but my Hornady book lists a max load for your 100gr soft point 257 Weatherby as 3400FPS. I don't know what you're doing to get an extra 500-550fps over that, but yes, at that velocity it is superior down range to most anything anybody's 204 or 224 could ever deliver. Sounds like fun.....and quick barrel replacement too.


Guys, after carefull studying, I think I've discovered that a 6.5-06 cartridge firing a 95gr Vmax at 3,500 FPS is my answer. At 350 yards and beyond it is delivering velocities faster then my 20 Tac with way more energy. And at 500-700 yards it keeps up with my 22x47 Lapua trajectory, but hits with 175 ft/lbs more energy. (the 75 grain Amax out of the 22x47Lapua still has 2'' less wind deflection at 500 yards)

I'm not sure I can understand the concerns about bullet richochet mentioned here. Sure, it's preferable to shoot a light fragmenting bullet, but I can't imagine discharging any firearm with any cows, tractors, or farm house in the distance anyway. :confused: I've not hunted yet, and so maybe my expectations are not realistic. (?) It sounds like you guys are commonly hunting at farms and pasteurs that invariably have a stray maurauding cow or two in your hunting perimeter. (?) Perhaps, my expectations of huge expanses of acreage with nothing as far as the eye can see, is not always a reality and where you can get to hunt?
 
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VaniB said:
I'm not sure I can understand the concerns about bullet richochet mentioned here. Sure, it's preferable to shoot a light fragmenting bullet, but I can't imagine discharging any firearm with any cows, tractors, or farm house in the distance anyway. :confused: I've not hunted yet, and so maybe my expectations are not realistic. (?) It sounds like you guys are commonly hunting at farms and pasteurs that invariably have a stray maurauding cow or two in your hunting perimeter. (?) Perhaps, my expectations of huge expanses of acreage with nothing as far as the eye can see, is not always a reality and where you can get to hunt?
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Sometimes the prairie isn't as nice and flat as we'd sometimes hope. I've shot on a few places in Eastern Montana and Wyoming where the ground looks flat, but in walking it there are dips, gullies, washes, and the like that are invisible from more than 50 or so yards away. One place my brother and I were shooting had a wash that was deep enough to hide cattle. These are not the brightest animals on the planet and some came wandering out to see what all the noise was. There are other places where there are low hills that a ricochet could bounce over and hit something unseen to the shooter.

For these reasons and others I prefer to use a bullet that will go all to pieces when it hits the ground. Hornady V-Max's will do that, so that's what I use. I've used 52 gr A-Max's in .22's and they seem to do the same thing. I've had them partially disintegrate when trying to nail a prairie dog on all fours in grass that has to be shot through.

The FWS guys described by Rustystud sound about like the cattle, but on two legs. :eek:
 
Sicero and Larry,

Well said- Been there, done that!

Rustystud,

Your story reminds me of a couple of years ago on the Colorado/Kansas border when we noticed we were under observation by Colorado DOW. One of our group walked out to the road and invited him in. Ten minutes later he was shooting dogs with our equipment. Turned out he was from back East and had never seen a set-up quite like ours. He was responding from 35 miles away because a lady rancher in the area was concerned about hearing "a lot of shooting for the past two days".

Good shooting!:D
 
RE lots of shooting..

Four of us went to Kansas. each took a 1 or 2 223s, 1 or 2 22 Rimfires, and an assortment of other calibers. In ten days of prarrie dog shooting there were over 30,000 rounds fired
Nat
 
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