240 PSP (Page Souper Pooper ?)

[219don]

Can anyone give me some info on this cartridge. I believe it's a Warren Page wildcat creation from a while back. What case is it based on and what are it's dimensions ? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill B.

 

[Cheechako]

Bill

The 240 PSP is an improved 244 Remington with a 28 degree shoulder. What dimensions do you want?

The original 240 Page was made from experimental Frankford Arsenal brass.

Ray

 

[Gunner223]

Bill, According to the Speer Wildcat reloading Manual number 4 dated 1959, Warren Page was involved in the development of the .243 WCF as well as the .244 Rem. The 240 PAGE SUPER POOPER is similar to a 244 Improved with a 27 degree shoulder and a overall length of 2.221.

Don

 

[J. Pendergraft]

Info From Speer Manual number 4. Made from 308 Winchester brass. You will note it is a bit longer than the 308 so not sure if the full length is attainable from 308. It will depend on how fireform is done, etc.

Dimensions from case head:

body length = 1.704"

shoulder angle 27 degrees

length to end of shoulder/start of neck = 1.870"

total length = 2.221"

 

[Cheechako]

Guys

You can't get a 2.22" case from 243 Winchester brass. It's made from 244 Remington brass.

The original 240 page had a 30 degree shoulder and was made from Frankford Arsenal brass which was 2.015" long. Arsenal brass became the 308 Winchester in 1952 and the 7.62x51 NATO in 1955.

And all of my references, and the cartridges I have in my collection, have a 28 degree shoulder. My JGS reamer print shows a 28 degree shoulder.

Here's the 240 Page and two wildcats made from 308W brass prior to adoption of the 243W in 1955. I can photograph a 240 PSP if anyone is interested.

Ray

 

[219don]

Thanks for info.

Soooo, if I have this straight, looks like there were two "wildcats" with the 240 designation that Mr. Page was involved with. The 240 Page, a necked down, blown out 308 and the 240 PSP (Page Souper Pooper), which appears to be slightly longer and is a blown out 6MM rem, which in turn seems to be a twin of the 243 Rock Chucker. It's amazing what a few thousandths here and a few degrees there can do. Thanks for the help.

 

[Charles E]

Ray's got the 240 Page right -- at least, according to Warren Page. (pages 162-163 of The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page, copyright 1973). It was drawn up by Page and Al Marcianti "on a piece of experimental ordinance brass. . ."

Winchester "rebuffed" Page's attempt to get this to a factory chambering, and he met with Remington, proposing a 6mm similar to Fred Huntington's .240 Rockchucker. Obviously, this was before the 244 Remington; the case was based on the .257 Roberts -- or, the 7mm Mauser, take your pick, since the Roberts is based on the 7mm Mauser.

The Speer Manual No. 4 (or so presented in my copy of Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges, by Ken Howell) has the 240 PSP as formed on the .308 Winchester, and that is wrong, as Ray said. It would be based on the 7mm Mauser -- whether made from that case, the Roberts case, or the .244 Remington would depend on just what it's origin date was.

Finally, I can't really remember, but I *think* the Page Super Pooper was spelled just that way, without a "o" in Super. The word "Souper" was used with a .25 caliber wildcat.

 

[Cheechako]

Charles

You know your wildcat history.

Page had a sense of humor like no one else. He jokingly referred to his 240 Page as the Page Pooper. After the 308W came out and guys necked it up to .25 caliber (25 Souper), Page wildcatted the 244 Rem and called it the 240 Page Super Pooper.

Since, as you said, the 7mm Mauser, 257 Roberts, and 244 Remington are all based on the same case, a 240 PSP can be made from any of them. The original 243 Rockchucker was made from 257 Roberts brass. It had a 32 degree shoulder.

I have a later version of the Speer manual that corrects the mistakes in #4. I have two of the original 240 Page cartridges headstamped FA 51. That's Frankford Arsenal 1951, a full year before the 308W was introduced.

That 308-6mm in the photo was one of Red Cornelisons wildcats from 1953, two years before the 243W was introduced.

Ray

 

[Butch Lambert]

You guys need to listen to Cheechako,Ray, as he knows his cartridges and wildcats.
Butch

 

[Dave Tooley]

And would you believe I have a RCBS 240 PSP FL die. It appears to have been shortened at one time. Probably to work with the 243 case. Also I have a Vickerman 6MM seating die that I'm sure was used inconjunction with it.

Dave

 

[Pat B.]

If I'm not mistaken I had a .240PSP many years ago that Dan Dowling did for me.. I believe I had Redding dies for it.. Bet he still has his chambering reamer too !

 

[Chisolm]

So in the 3rd edition Cartridges of the World Frank Barnes has it wrong?

James

 

[Cheechako]

So in the 3rd edition Cartridges of the World Frank Barnes has it wrong?James

Yes.

I belong to a cartridge collector's organization that has a semi-monthly newsletter. Each issue of the newsletter would have a page devoted to corrections to COTW. It was finally dropped because each new edition of COTW either continued the errors or added new ones. Letters to the publishers went unanswered and editors were changed almost yearly.

COTW is a good general reference for beginner collectors but not the end-all. There is a new cartridge guide now being published that is going to give it a run for it's money. Nothing lasts forever. Frank Barnes died in 1992 and it's just a matter of time until COTW does likewise.

Ray

 

[Chisolm]

Thank you Ray.
I suspected that was the case but didn't know, which is why I asked.
Do you have any more information on the new cartridge guide?

James

 

[Cheechako]

James

I hope it's OK to link to particular dealers.

http://www.ammo-one.com/AmmoEncyclopedia.html

Ray

 

[brian roberts]

The Speer manual.......

#5 reports, that the readers of Page's articles(and Page, as well!!) preferred a cartridge w/a steeper shoulder & longer neck for better performance w/slower powders, better case life, & better holding of the longest .243 bullets. What was arrived at, was a longer case(which dictated the .244 brass, according to Speer) which had the same taper as the .243, but which would hold 2 to 5 grains more powder, & propel the 105grnr. at 3100+. So this would indicate that perhaps the Pooper came along a year or two after the .244, as a developmental thing to improve the Pooper over the .243 AND give a better cartridge than the .244, using the brass of the latter. Page used this on European Red Stag, or Hirsch, in New Zealand, which often are over 400lbs; making fourteen one-shot kills.
And yes, Pat, Dowling does still have that Pooper reamer!!! He said that when folks have the Pooper done after using the .243, OR 6MM Rem, "They never look back..."

 

[Squeal]

Help me out here please.

I am getting ready to build a semi-custom 6mm. I was looking real hard at a 6mm Ackley, but was told it wouldnt feed. So I thought I should just stick with the 6mm Remington. Now I am real curious about this PSP. I just read that it is made by necking down .25/06 brass. Is this right? Wouldnt that be about the same as a .6/06?? What is the velocity difference between a 6mm Remington and a PSP?? I will be shooting 75-87gr. bullets. Will the PSP feed better than the Ackley with the shoulder difference? Thanks so much for all the help. Oh, also can you just fire form a PSP from factory 6mm Remington like you can the Ackley?

 

[Charles E]

1. Several places in this thread, it has been pointed out that the 240 PSP, and the .244 (aka 6mm Remington) use the 7mm Mauser case as the parent. The 7mm Mauser is different from the .30/06, which is the parent case for the .25/06. Since the mauser has the same case head size, but is shorter, you *could* make the cases from a 26/06, but it would be a lot of unnecessary work.

2. There is a 6mm/06. You can push a Sierra 107 to 3,500 or more. Lighter 6mms even faster. You also change barrels quite often. And, there aren't that many 6mm bullets made on jackets that will take this kind of abuse.

3. The voice of experience. Anytime you move the neck/shoulder junction backwards (toward the casehead), you are in for a lot of work making good cases. Easy enough to push the shoulder back, hard, and very time consuming to get a good, even neck.

Of course, all us who have wildcatted chamberings start out with the notion that we can make a better case, so this "voice of experience" remark is usually ignored.

Have fun, you'll at least help the economy.

 

[RPnKC]

I have a 240 Page Super Pooper, barreled and chambered by Dan Dowling, dies by Redding. I think my choice was 1:10, definitely wanted it to shoot 85-95grain bullets, and yes it does.
Redding dies are expensive, but they will make them.

By rpnkc, shot with NIKON D1X at 2009-02-23
Yes, the 6mm REM is the parent case for the 240 PSP. And they fireform effortlessly, I had zero case failures.

By rpnkc, shot with NIKON D1X at 2009-02-23
Don't recall the neck dimension, no-turn necks.

By rpnkc, shot with NIKON D1X at 2009-02-23

Squeal.....I built this for the same reason...6Ackley won't feed. No it is NOT
.25-06 brass. Can't tell you what real velocities are for 6mmREM. Found my loading data results. 95gr. Nosler BT, 52.0gr. R22, 3,360fps. 85gr. Sierra, 51.5gr. R22, 3,372fps.....this shot exceptionally well. Also less trimming than .243 or 6mm Rem. Yes fireforming was easy, bullet touching, pull the trigger, repeat as necessary. My pre'64 M70 feeds the empty cases out of the magazine.

 

[Wapiti]

If I'm not mistaken I had a .240PSP many years ago that Dan Dowling did for me.. I believe I had Redding dies for it.. Bet he still has his chambering reamer too !

Dan did have a soft spot for the PSP. We had along discussion about it when I was building my Super Rockchucker years ago.

As stated in Speer #4, wasn't Page's main premise to clean up .243 Win. chambers and get a little more velocity out of them. He also wrote it up in the Gun Digest in the late '50s.

Good shooting!