20mph wind 30BR

skeetlee

Active member
I just read a post a little bit ago here that really struck a topic i have been thinking about now for a couple weeks. Three weeks ago we were down in St Louis for a group match, and the wind was awful. I mean it was terrible. a .298 agg won the 100 yard grand, thats how bad it was. Anyway while we were there, i got to talking with a fella i met sometime back while shooting a 600 yard match, and he was shooting his 6dasher for 200 yard group, and not doing to bad i might add. While visiting, the topic of 30br 30cal bullets came up, and it was decided that perhaps a 6br or 6.5x47L or heck even a 22BR fast twist would be a better choice, for St Louis windy 200 yard score matches?? This really has me thinking!
I shot some score targets here at home a few weeks ago in a 20MPH wind at 200 yards, and the results were not pretty at all. Down right disappointing to be honest. What if a guy was to shoot a 6.5x47L at 200 yards in a score match? Do you think there would be anything to gain? I am thinking perhaps there might be?? Those short fat 30cal bullets really do not do well at 200 yards in winds such as these at St Loius.
I Love my 30BR and i definitely think its the first choice for 100 yard score matches, but when the wind gets tough, and its time to shoot 200 yards is there another choice that offers any advantage? Maybe there really isnt? Its hard to argue with history, and all the big score shoots i read about are won with a 30BR even at 200 yards. I dont know, what do you think? Lee
 
When the wind blows you find out who the guys who can read the wind are. Your 6.5x47 will still get it's a-- kicked by a guy who can read and handle the conditions.
 
I have to say my first year with the 30BR in the wind was defiantly a learning experience after shooting a 223AI but i have to say once i started to be able to shoot in the push it surley drifted more but was more predictable than the smaller bullets. Granted im no expert and to watch the Eubers, Kim, or Bill shoot in the switchy wind we have here in ST-J it still amazes me. When im just trying to keep it in the 10 ring they are still chasing X-s. I agree better BC's may help inexperienced shooters but it certainly will never replace all out wind reading skills.
 
Lee - You can run a ballistic chart for both bullets and see exactly how much more deflection the 30 will have. It may be more than you expected, or it could be less. I don't know how much difference you think there is.


I'm not saying there is no ballistic advantage to higher BC bullets. We couldn't shoot decent groups or scores at long range if there wasn't. But don't look for a magic bullet that will eliminate wind deflection, or give you an edge. If there was such a thing, don't you think everyone else would know about it?

It's what Dick said. The good shooter is going to kick your butt because he's a better shooter and can read the conditions.
 
Food for thought

Most agree that the higher bc bullets are an advantage at long range, but...at what exact distance does that advantage happen in a stiff and switchy wind?
I know that there is no precise answer, just something to think about that may give credence to what Lee is saying. Personally, I think that there are days when a better bc bullet with accuracy that is good, but not quite as good as the more common point blank bullets, would be advantageous in score, particularly on the caliber neutral targets of UBR. Your thoughts...--Mike Ezell
 
keep in mind this is just a discussion. I am not looking for any magic bullets or excuses. I am simply interested in the difference of opinions, or better yet personal experiences. About the only thing i am sure of here is that 118gr 30cal bullets really get blown around in the wind. Actually its the worst bullets i have ever shot when the wind is blowing, so with this experience alone i cant help but wonder?
Shooting in the push or blow is actually something i have learned here fairly recently. I was always the one shooting right after the push and wondering why my groups were 1" across. LOL!! I am very observant and i soon realized i was shooting at the wrong time and once i started shooting in the blow rather than the lull, i started to shoot better groups. my shooting is coming along quite nice actually. I have a few pieces of wood on the wall.
i just love talking and discussing different ideas, as you never know what you might find thats works. Along with that, you can also find what doesnt when i take these ideas and try them. Lee
 
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Do a search on the .220 Wilson Arrow.
L.E. Wilson used this to shoot Benchrest many years ago .
He used a slow lot of H-380 in a modified .220 Swift case to get 4000 f.p.s.

Glenn
 
keep in mind this is just a discussion.

And therein lies the problem. The number of people who have done any significant testing, particularly in recent years with the better long jackets, is quite small. Of those who've even tried, most have taken, say, their 600 yard rifle & tested a bit at 100. I've done this too. I've even fired 5 consecutive targets under match timing.

Results are inconclusive, because few of us have *studied* performance -- shot under match conditions when the wind is up & there were more conventional chambered BR rifles to compare results.

Even fewer the number of people who have built, say, a 10.5 pound 6BR or PPC with an 8-twist barrel. There are a few HVs, still not many. Joel Kendrick used a point-blank legal 6mm HV the year he won the 600 yard SOY. But he didn't study performance at 200 under match conditions, and used a chambering closer to a 6XC. The only one I know of is R. G. Robinett, who fired a HV-legal Dasher at 200 yards at a few matches, using his 121-grain flat base bullets. At least one 2nd place at a regional-level match.

Data point, 1.

It takes more than one. Look at you conclusion about .30BR performance in the wind, based on what happened to you. Now your conclusion is wrong, but you have evidence for it. It's "wrong" using simple ballistics, as R. G. Robinett pointed out. Its "wrong" with counterexamples, because I've used a .30BR several times at the 300 yard Southeastern Regional championships. One of those was in heavy wind -- average agg was over 1 inch that day. My .30BR was in the top 10.

But you did some work for your conclusion, and that work counts. As it turns out, ballistic theory is against you, and other examples don't match yours. If the poor results weren't due to your shooting -- and I doubt they were -- that might mean there is something slightly off with your .30 BR. Maybe the build, more likely choice of bullets for that barrel, but something. That in itself is worth knowing for you personally, though it doesn't help the rest of us much.

These winter "discussions" often wind up doing more harm than good. Everybody trots out passed down conventional wisdom, so even more people wind up believing it and passing it on. Trying something once & drawing a conclusion (we all do it, me too) can be even worse than a discussion, because now there is "evidence."

Think it through. There are any number of steps that can be taken to try and get slightly better performance in the wind. To put it generally, to see if improved BC matters in the wind. Some can be done relatively cheaply.

Here's one. Take your existing setup, and try meplat trimming and repointing the bullets. You can test your technique by shooing at 100 yards on a calm day. Your groups should be as good as with unmodified bullets. If they aren't, work on your technique until they are. With these ballistically better bullets (which are just as accurate as unmodified ones, because you've tested them), shoot at 200 for a year. Or, for quicker results, accept you're going to wear out a barrel with no "match rewards," & test them extensively.

That will tell you just how much BC matters. It does, of course, the trick is to (1) get enough improvement to be worth the work or expense, and (2) the compromises, if any, with light-wind conditions are worth it.

If the little step proves out, now you're ready to commit to a bigger one, such as a fast-twist barrel & higher BC bullets.

This is the life of an experimenter. Not much in it except the satisfaction of learning.

Why don't Wayne Campbell and Tony Boyer etc. use high BC bullets if they're an advantage? Because they don't need to. They are competitors. What do I mean? Suppose, for example, that high BC bullets do offer a slight advantage in the wind only. To use them, you have to change barrels, powder, etc. Even more important, your hard-earned knowledge/honed instincts about how far the bullet is going to move in *this* wind gets muddled.

Competition and experimenting don't often go well together. Maybe Ferris Pindell is in the Hall of Fame, I don't know. The IBS has the Precision Rifleman and Long Range Marksman programs, which tracks long-term competitive performance. A few of the experimentally-minded gunsmiths are in these; most are pure competitors. It took me much longer to make the long-range marksman bronze level than most people on the list. Now maybe that's because I'm a lousy shot, or maybe it's because I'm an experimenter, who will spend a year chasing down some notion. Not all good ideas work, you know.

Even worse, when you wind up proving out an idea, if it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, it will catch on very slowly. Too many people have had "discussions" where the conclusion was "That'll never work."
 
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I'm not so sure the BC advantage comes into play until you get beyond perhaps 300 yards.
This is an interesting notion. The quick answer is "sure if does." It isn't large at 100 or 200, but it is there. However, it is small enough that if you have to make any other compromises, it absolutely isn't worth it.

More complex comes from experience at 1,000 yards. For years, I shot a relatively low BC bullet, the BIB 187 flatbase, which has a real world ballistic coefficient of .520. I got very good groups. In fact, that bullet was used to set the IBS 10-shot single group record (Joel Pendergraft), the NBRSA 10-shot single group record (Dave Tooley), and several Australian 5 and 10 shot records (Jeff Rogers).

Scores weren't so good, though (in 1K benchrest, you shoot for both group & score simultaneously). For the last year and a half, I've been shooting an "experimental" bullet Randy made on the same die, a 210 grain bullet with a short boattail (B.C. about .655). My scores have improved dramatically, and groups did not suffer.

My conclusion: For whatever range, good bullets, regardless of their B.C. (within reason), win group matches. Score is a different kettle of fish entirely.
 
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One of the last things that Ferris was working on before demintia set in was his tip die that completely closed the tips of bullets. He brought some 22 and 6mm bullets to the supershoot to show off and offered some for testing. I don't remember who was doing the testing but there was significant difference in drift between the closed tipped bullets and standard tip bullets at both 100 & 200 yds. Ferris said that he believed the 6br with 95-105 grn bullet with closed tip would be a advantage at 200yds in windy conditions if the accuracy level of both were the same. Basically, the advantage it gave was the "Oh sh*t" trigger pull. It would minimize the damage to the group.

Hovis
 
Lee,
I think that there is one way to settle this that cannot be argued with. Have two shooters set up, with one unoccupied bench between them( A little investigation should reveal if there is enough distance between the benches in your shooting "house" to eliminate the possibility of doubling.), on a day when the wind is blowing hard, (with previously determined still air zeros) and have a third person give the commands as to when they should both fire. For the purposes of the exercise, they should both hold on the center of their targets, and several shots should be taken during the extremes of wind velocity, hopefully from both the left and right. I think that this would do a good job of settling the issue. Obviously, both the 6PPC and .30 Br should be tuned as well as possible, at velocities that accurately represent those typically used in matches.
Boyd
 
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Charles, your "conclusion" was where I was getting at, but I think it pertains to score too, given the great bullets being made. Inside 300, I think great BR bullets can do very well, being driven by those that know what they are doing (which reduces the playing field a great deal). Once you get out beyond that, unseen conditions are a factor you can't see and try to dope, and the BC makes the difference. On a great day, a 6PPC can shoot very well at 600. Throw in a little mirage and wind, and things aint so good.
 
This is all very interesting to me,and Charles i appreciate your incite very much sir. Please dont think i dont.
I am not a top level competitor nor will i probably ever be. I like to shoot and play with different powders,bullets, and chamberings. I have about three to many rifles to be superb with any single one, but thats where my enjoyment is. I Dont doubt for minute as to what has been said here, and i think its great that we have a place were we can hash this type of info out. I get PM's all the time from folks that dont post here much and they all say, well most say, or ask what topic i am going to bring up next, as they enjoy the ideas or discussions i put forth. I only hope this is true for most folks here?
I will investigate this topic as Boyd has suggested, and i will post my findings. Not as an I am right, and you are wrong, type of post either. "it sounds like i will be wrong anyway, but we will see". Rather as one curious shooter doing something he really has passion about, and sharing his findings with his friends. Maybe this weekend if the wind is blowing, and my shooting pard comes over. I will approach this with an open mind, hopeful to learn a thing or two. thanks again Fellas. Lee

Sorry for my grammar, I know i suck at it. I have read and re-read this post 5 times and it still looks jumbled up, I hope you get my point. Thanks guys, have a great weekend! Lee
 
Boyd, IIRC, T.J. Jackson did a variation of your test at Midland. It showed what you would expect, the high BC bullet did better (In his case, it was a high BC bullet in a .22 BR).

Lee, I understand in part where you are coming from. I'll allow I don't look forward to your topics, but that's simply personal preference. What I object to, from anyone -- including me -- is a too cursory investigation where conclusions are drawn none the less.

To give you an example of one of my screwups, when meplat trimming first came out, long before Tubb picked it up as holy writ, Dave Tooley & I tried it. I thought it was going to cure a lot of ills -- maybe shrink groups 2-3 inches at 1,000 yards. It didn't. When repointing bullets came along, I was sure the claims were fiction, they far exceeded what well-established ballistic theory could explain. Now, to shorten this up, when I tested repointing, I found what I expected to find.

But enough people I respect had success -- moderate improvement -- so I tried again. My personal approach is to shoot 5-10 matches and evaluate the performance under different conditions, against other competitors. Not scientific, but works for me. Anyway, the second time, had a better mental attitude -- not expecting too much or too little. By first trimming, then repointing, I found the improvement. Not as great as some were claiming, but solidly there.

It's hard to be scientific. Double-blind tests with enough data points just don't happen in benchrest. Its hard to be objective, too. Placebo often has a cure rate of 50%.

Boyd can tell you that not too long ago, 6mm benchrest bullets had a 6.5 caliber tangent ogive, with a big meplat for a 6mm -- .0625, was it? These were/are "Fowler" bullets. It was felt that higher ogive/smaller meplat bullets "just weren't as accurate." Now they're common. As little as five years ago, the prevailing opinion was "9-ogives wont shoot, at least, after the day warms up." They're becoming more common.

Now these aren't the home-run solutions of using a VLD at 100 yards. What they are is little steps that show less drag -- higher BC -- helps. Just one of the many reason aggs are coming down. With that as a goal, we may reach the day where we're shooing, if not a VLD, a high-BC bullet at point blank distances.

* * *

A few years ago, Jim Borden asked Joel Pendergraft & me to write an article for Precision Shooting on our tensioned barrel rifles. We felt we could give a recipe for a 1,000 yard HG -- a 60, 70 pound rifle. We're sure that if you built 10 ten tensioned barrel rifles our way, and 10 conventional rifles in HG, the tension barrel rifles would, as a group, outperform the conventional. But we couldn't do that for a LG. Some were great, some failures. We had "something," but couldn't come up with a formula, which meant we didn't really know what was going on. So we didn't write it. Seems proper to me.
 
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Just an observation, but it seems there are more BT bullets being used in point blank BR, than I can recall. I'm sure those that use them do so because they are working well....for whatever reason.---Mike
 
I have been trying a BT bullet at short range to see if i can get away from some vertical in the load..seemed i had a good tuned load that shot well but a tail wind it just did not like so i thought wonder if a boat tail might help that.At this time i have no idea if it does but hope that it might.

I have done some 300 yrd wind testing(limited) and found nothing helps in the wind like bullet weight..if you can keep the velocity up and gain bullet weight you will have less wind deflection. it's a no brainer..but as bullet weight goes up and velocity stays the same recoil becomes unmanageable.

But i would think a 30BR with the velocity it makes with short range bullets, would fair well (i've never shot one)..but i know what the wind will do to the light 22 and 6mm bullets. I dont believe the BC at 100-300yrd's can really be seen,I would take a custom FB everytime at that distance if they are great bullets.
I dont believe that the high BC bullets(I think 600's as high BC), show any signifcant advantage untill beyond 600yrd's..beyond 600 they cant be beat.
I shoot the berger VLD's as hunting bullets and it seems everyone i know shoots them now, they just work well as a hunting bullet.
 
. . . I have done some 300 yrd wind testing(limited) and found nothing helps in the wind like bullet weight. . .

. . . I dont believe that the high BC bullets(I think 600's as high BC), show any signifcant advantage untill beyond 600yrd's..beyond 600 they cant be beat.. . .

Nothing helps in the wind like BC. Two bullets of different weight, same velocity, same BC = same deflection.

Assuming a uniform wind from muzzle to target, wind deflection starts at the muzzle and is proportional to the distance. Whether or not you consider the short range deflection significant is up to you. Deflection at 200 yards of 2" is significant IMHO. That's the difference you'll see between a bullet with .6 BC and one with a .3 BC.

Ray
 
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Deflection at 200 yards of 2" is significant IMHO. That's the difference you'll see between a bullet with .6 BC and one with a .3 BC.

Ray

Actually, it is a little worse, or better, than that. To put in real numbers:

A bullet with a BC of .540 and a MV of 3,000 fps has a 10-mph deflection of 2.3 inches at 200 yards.

A bullet with a BC of .260 and a MV of 3,000 fps has a 10-mph deflection of 4.7 inches at 200 yards.

So, (1) it is a little worse than 2 inches. But (2) it is extremely unlikely that you can drive both bullets to the same velocity with the same case while maintaining equal pressure & loading density, unless maybe one was a wadcutter & one a VLD -- nah, not even that.

The whole notion of increasing the bullet weight while maintaining the same MV is kind of flawed from the start -- probably part of Ray's point.

* * *

While it is easiest to gain in BC by increasing the weight of the bullet, the second easiest gain comes from having a smaller meplat -- right up to the point where you're bending knock-out pins in the point die. That's the whole basis for "repointing" bullets.

Something often overlooked is that just like there is a real-world difference in actual MV with any load -- say 10 to 20 fps extreme spread -- there is a difference in BC (drag) with any manufactured bullets. It's not uncommon to see .010, and .020 is not unheard of. So, lets suppose your loading is perfect & your MV is +/- 0 fps. With those .020 different BC bullets, which you can do nothing about, at 200 yards, you have a vertical difference of .1 inches, and a (10 mph) drift difference of .3 inches.

And that's the point of meplat trimming.

Moral is, get good bullets & trust them.

If you really want to get into improving performance in the wind, look long & hard at every element, then do testing to make sure you're not giving up too much, either in terms of performance, or your time.
 
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