What Makes a "Good" Action a Good Action?

[RegisG]

I understand the quality of barrels that make them accurate. I also understand triggers, stocks and rests helping to get the most consistency out of a gun. What I don't understand is what makes an action so important to BR accuracy. Is it simply the weight, or bulk? Or the bolt/lugs? What makes a top action (e.g. 40X, Annie 54, Suhl, etc) so crucial to bench rest accuracy?

Appreciate facts and even opinions.
Thanks,
Regis

 

[tim]

I understand the quality of barrels that make them accurate. I also understand triggers, stocks and rests helping to get the most consistency out of a gun. What I don't understand is what makes an action so important to BR accuracy. Is it simply the weight, or bulk? Or the bolt/lugs? What makes a top action (e.g. 40X, Annie 54, Suhl, etc) so crucial to bench rest accuracy?

Appreciate facts and even opinions.
Thanks,
Regis

Why not utilize the "search" function, this has been talked to death and there are literally hundereds of posts over the years on every forum.

 

[lion]

Just to stir the pot a little. A heavy barrel such as on the Remington 40Xs and 40XBs needs the tenon to be a half inch longer and 1 1/8 dia threads to support the barrel properly. I think that is why a lot of the standard barrels shoot just as well as the heavy barrels This is just my opinion so take it for what you paid for it. Wayne

 

[Boyd Allen]

A number of years back, but not too many, Bob Beckett took the California state four gun well into the era of custom actions, against a field of PPCs that included some world record holders. All of his rifles and his rail were built on Remington actions that he had worked over and sleeved. Virtually all of his competition were shooting custom actions, most of those with longer tenons. Action threads do not take their load equally. The first three or four do most of the work because of tenon stretch, and fit is not particularly an issue because V threads center when tightened. Sometimes things that seem to make sense, are not the case.

Good actions have good concentricity between bolt and barrel threads, have good bolt body to action body fit, their lugs bear evenly on their abutments, their bolt faces and front receiver ring faces are square to the action's CL, the firing pin hole and pin are a good fit, their striker assemblies have no unnecessary drag, and deliver energy to the primer with the least vibration and within a narrow range of energy. They are well timed, trigger to striker, bolt handle to action body, and lugs to closing cams. Beyond the things that can be easily measured there is the issue of residual material stress. Less well known, the effect of action hardness. Generally there are also the matters of stiffness, and bedding area, although it is common that too much importance is given to the former and too little to the latter. Last but certainly not least they must be configured to accept the best available triggers.

 

[tim]

Just to stir the pot a little. A heavy barrel such as on the Remington 40Xs and 40XBs needs the tenon to be a half inch longer and 1 1/8 dia threads to support the barrel properly. I think that is why a lot of the standard barrels shoot just as well as the heavy barrels This is just my opinion so take it for what you paid for it. Wayne

Well....if we're gonna have a conversation, stir the pot some more. I have no idea where you heard that but it's flat wrong. The 1 1/8" tenon is a by product of the fact that the receways were broached from the front and the tooling required a hole that big. That said, some of the best shooting 40X's happened when guys figured out how to thread a bushing into the action resulting in a 3/4" tenon and eliminating the stepdown of the barrel. This carried over to the Swindlehurst actions and obviously barrel support was not a factor.
This comes directly from the guys that invented the 40X, Mike Walker and Jimmy Stekl.

 

[lion]

Well....if we're gonna have a conversation, stir the pot some more. I have no idea where you heard that but it's flat wrong. The 1 1/8" tenon is a by product of the fact that the receways were broached from the front and the tooling required a hole that big. That said, some of the best shooting 40X's happened when guys figured out how to thread a bushing into the action resulting in a 3/4" tenon and eliminating the stepdown of the barrel. This carried over to the Swindlehurst actions and obviously barrel support was not a factor.
This comes directly from the guys that invented the 40X, Mike Walker and Jimmy Stekl.

Tim;
I'm just guessing here but I am pretty sure we are going to find out that the barrels the swindelhursts were using were not the same size and weight as a remington heavy barrel profile. Am I right or wrong?
Wayne

 

[RegisG]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good actions have good concentricity between bolt and barrel threads, have good bolt body to action body fit, their lugs bear evenly on their abutments, their bolt faces and front receiver ring faces are square to the action's CL, the firing pin hole and pin are a good fit, their striker assemblies have no unnecessary drag, and deliver energy to the primer with the least vibration and within a narrow range of energy. They are well timed, trigger to striker, bolt handle to action body, and lugs to closing cams. Beyond the things that can be easily measured there is the issue of residual material stress. Less well known, the effect of action hardness. Generally there are also the matters of stiffness, and bedding area, although it is common that too much importance is given to the former and too little to the latter. Last but certainly not least they must be configured to accept the best available triggers.

I can understand most all of that. Bolt face/squareness and bolt to lugs fit and bedding was pretty much all I could think of. Never gave a thought to firing pin even though I have seen in the past, evidence inconsistent firing pin strikes.

Thank you very much for the education.

Regis

 

[Slick Willy]

Ignition is a culprit!

I can understand most all of that. Bolt face/squareness and bolt to lugs fit and bedding was pretty much all I could think of. Never gave a thought to firing pin even though I have seen in the past, evidence inconsistent firing pin strikes.

Thank you very much for the education.

Regis

Ignition is the advantage most custom actions have over OEM and is the major reason say in selecting a Anschutz 54 action the older Wing Safety action is more desirable than the new actions because the wing safety has better ignition if properly done! You can get one shot that is not ignited well and get a 50 in ARA and loose the match ,too risky to go that way , it took me a while competing to realize that ignition is that big of culprit! I have every action there is ,Many 40X`s ,Suhls and Customs ....I shoot a Flash Ebert Turbo cause day in ,day out they produce the best ignition in RF!

 

[RegisG]

Ignition is the advantage most custom actions have over OEM and is the major reason say in selecting a Anschutz 54 action the older Wing Safety action is more desirable than the new actions because the wing safety has better ignition if properly done! You can get one shot that is not ignited well and get a 50 in ARA and loose the match ,too risky to go that way , it took me a while competing to realize that ignition is that big of culprit! I have every action there is ,Many 40X`s ,Suhls and Customs ....I shoot a Flash Ebert Turbo cause day in ,day out they produce the best ignition in RF!

It sounds like cleaning, polishing, & lubing all ignition components of most any rifle would improve it. I recently took an advanced long range reloading class and learned about chamfering the primer hole INSIDE the case. That was pretty much my first "enlightenment" to the importance of ignition. Now the emphasis placed here on firing pins and ignition has given me a new appreciation on things we seldom think about.

Thank you,
Regis

 

[tim]

Tim;
I'm just guessing here but I am pretty sure we are going to find out that the barrels the swindelhursts were using were not the same size and weight as a remington heavy barrel profile. Am I right or wrong?
Wayne

.900" X 24"-25" is pretty close to a Remy HB, besides, some of these guys hang a good 1-1 1/2 lb. off the end of these things.
Again, nothing to do with bbl weight.

 

[Peter Armstrong]

If you look at results world wide from the last couple of years there is a trend with which brand of action works best with which brand of ammo. But as with all things rimfire there is always exceptions to the rule, like the last 2 world championships were won using a Falcon action and who would of predicted that.


With Eley all the best scores are with actions with big hit firing pins.
Lapua best results from not such hard firing pin hitters like Falcons and worked over Anschutz.
RWS best results have been with lighter hit actions like Halls and Anschutz.

This wouldn't apply to all results but it would be above 90% of results world wide.

Peter

 

[RegisG]

If you look at results world wide from the last couple of years there is a trend with which brand of action works best with which brand of ammo. But as with all things rimfire there is always exceptions to the rule, like the last 2 world championships were won using a Falcon action and who would of predicted that.


With Eley all the best scores are with actions with big hit firing pins.
Lapua best results from not such hard firing pin hitters like Falcons and worked over Anschutz.
RWS best results have been with lighter hit actions like Halls and Anschutz.

This wouldn't apply to all results but it would be above 90% of results world wide.

Peter

Now, that's very interesting and the first time I've heard about these differences. And, how different ammo performs based on firing pin hit. Makes me think that having various firing pin springs available.

Thanks for the insight.
Regis

 

[tim]

If you look at results world wide from the last couple of years there is a trend with which brand of action works best with which brand of ammo. But as with all things rimfire there is always exceptions to the rule, like the last 2 world championships were won using a Falcon action and who would of predicted that.


With Eley all the best scores are with actions with big hit firing pins.
Lapua best results from not such hard firing pin hitters like Falcons and worked over Anschutz.
RWS best results have been with lighter hit actions like Halls and Anschutz.

This wouldn't apply to all results but it would be above 90% of results world wide.

Peter

There is nothing but coincidence here. There is absolutely zero in the way of actual data to subscribe to that theory of action type vs ammo.

 

[Peter Armstrong]

There is nothing but coincidence here. There is absolutely zero in the way of actual data to subscribe to that theory of action type vs ammo.

There is no hard data but if you look at results from around the world for about the last 5 year or so, that is the trend that is showing up.

But if a lot of match result isn't a way of judging what is working, what is???

Peter

 

[tim]

If I'm not mistaken, once you leave the US,a major componant of what's used is largely what is possible to get your hands on.
If you look at nothing but total matches shot here in all disciplines which likely greatly outnumbers your data base, you come up with zero correlation to your assumptions, plus there is not even a whisper of that among the top builders. What's that tell you?

 

[Peter Armstrong]

If I'm not mistaken, once you leave the US,a major componant of what's used is largely what is possible to get your hands on.
If you look at nothing but total matches shot here in all disciplines which likely greatly outnumbers your data base, you come up with zero correlation to your assumptions, plus there is not even a whisper of that among the top builders. What's that tell you?

In some countries it is hard to get ammo but it places like Australia we have reasonable supplies of Eley, RWS and Lapua and over the years I won nationals and international medals with all 3, I just use what works best.

In Europe you have Eley, RWS and Lapua test ranges so roughly within a days drive of all rimfire BR shooters in Europe they can go to a factory test range and pick their lots. Now this might be a strange idea but I think they might test and use the brand of ammo that their gun likes best.

I tested at the RWS range in Germany back in 2010 and over a conversation at lunch I learnt a few things about how the rifle manufactures went about testing. That conversation is what got me looking at results over the last 5 years.

Peter

 

[tim]

This may ge true but what does it have to do with the initial post? Last I heard Alan Hall does'nt make rifles and you can grow old and grey looking for matches won by factory Anschutz' .

 

[Peter Armstrong]

This may ge true but what does it have to do with the initial post? Last I heard Alan Hall does'nt make rifles and you can grow old and grey looking for matches won by factory Anschutz' .

Another thing I have noticed is those who think they have all the answers never seem to win a big match and never improve and those with an open mind who are constantly looking for way to improve alway seem to get better.

Peter

 

[Slick Willy]

Peter Tries them All !

Another thing I have noticed is those who think they have all the answers never seem to win a big match and never improve and those with an open mind who are constantly looking for way to improve alway seem to get better.

Peter

Peter ,you must not have visited NY while you were over here for the Triple Crown ! The best 22RFBR shooters in the USA hale from there , and win Big at Big Time 22BR matches ,wish you could have met some of them when you over here ,long ways to come and miss our best ! You did get to meet The Buzzard from Buffalo , He is a very good Shooter, but he Can`t hold a torch to those others! If you ever make it back over here maybe they will show up and just shoot circles around the OZ folks , Too bad you miss them!

 

[tim]

Another thing I have noticed is those who think they have all the answers never seem to win a big match and never improve and those with an open mind who are constantly looking for way to improve alway seem to get better.

Peter

So other than a snarky bull..it remark, kindly show me the error of my ways here.