What is a "State of the Art" RFBR rifle

[tonykharper]

Here we are in the middle of the winter, this is the best time to start a new RFBR rifle build.

If you were building an all-out, go for broke, no holds barred, RFBR rifle what components would you use?

We know what Jeff Patterson has chosen to use on his first J-Pat SPEC rifle, would you use the same, or do you have different ideas?

Share your ideas here.

TKH (4628)

 

[penn63]

I just had one finished by John Langley. Components are: Turbo V3, Muller 4 MI, Bix and Andy, Ro-Tex Dymalux stock bedded by Randy, March 48x52 and a Harrel tuner. I'm shooting off a Pappas one piece rest with a PQP delrin top. Now if I could just find some ammo to test and find a lot that will do it justice. I need to find a shooter to do it justice also. LOL. Tony, I wish I had someone with your credentials shoot it and give me an honest opinion of the rifle. It's been windy since I got it. When I drop a shot I don't know if it's me, the ammo or the wind. My highest scores so far have been a 2350 ARA target and a 250--20X IR 50 target shooting Eley black box in the 1060 fps range. I'm happy with the IR 50 target but the ARA target kicks my butt on a regular basis. I really enjoy reading your posts. Les

 

[tonykharper]

I just had one finished by John Langley. Components are: Turbo V3, Muller 4 MI, Bix and Andy, Ro-Tex Dymalux stock bedded by Randy, March 48x52 and a Harrel tuner. I'm shooting off a Pappas one piece rest with a PQP delrin top. Now if I could just find some ammo to test and find a lot that will do it justice. I need to find a shooter to do it justice also. LOL. Tony, I wish I had someone with your credentials shoot it and give me an honest opinion of the rifle. It's been windy since I got it. When I drop a shot I don't know if it's me, the ammo or the wind. My highest scores so far have been a 2350 ARA target and a 250--20X IR 50 target shooting Eley black box in the 1060 fps range. I'm happy with the IR 50 target but the ARA target kicks my butt on a regular basis. I really enjoy reading your posts. Les

Les,

You certainly built a "State of the Art" RFBR rifle. You used great parts and had them put together by a very successful Rimfire gunsmith.

From the scores you mentioned I'm sure even better results are in your future.

In the past when one shot the ARA target one only worried about keeping the shot inside the 100 ring.

Now that ARA is recognizing Xs and scores have gotten so good, one is forced to go for the dot on every shot.

Which now makes shooting the ARA target essentially the same as shooting a PSL target.

Please post pics and tell us would you do anything different if you had it to do over.

I know the Turbo V-3 comes with a crescent shaped firing. There has been much discussion about these pins, and I wonder what has your experience been?

Hope to see you on the range somewhere and I would be honored to have a go with your rifle.

TKH (4628)

 

[penn63]

Tony, thanks for your reply. We shoot at Coast Rifle and Pistol Club which is just a few miles North of the Gulf of Mexico. It seems the wind is always blowing. I would like to shoot this rifle indoors but we don't have an indoor range close by. At 77 I doubt that I will be traveling to any shoots. I read about you guys all the time and would like to meet y'all one day. We are all in our 70's and enjoy our local fun shoots. What prompted me to have this rifle built is everyone at the range stepped up their equipment and my Cooper TRP-3 wasn't cutting it anymore. Most of what prompted me to choose the Turbo action was reading over on the Calfee site. He may be a little over the top, but at one time he was tops in building winning rifles. I wish I knew one tenth of what he does about rimfire rifles. I read everything I can to learn what I can. It's as simple as that. My son lives in Louisville which is close to Bill's hometown of Borden. I'll take him some of my home made Cajun hog's head cheese the next time I visit. That's if I can contact him. At my age my eyes are not the greatest, but I don't consider that a handicap while looking through a 48X scope. My misses are probably caused by my poor wind reading ability and buying ammo in the blind without testing. That's about all we can do today. As far as the crescent shaped firing pin is concerned I can' tell much difference shooting outside. I was told, by I forget the source, that you might see a small difference in ignition uniformity accuracy shooting inside. EDIT: Then again, I may have been told this about the PAS ignition uniformity of the Turbo action.Don't know. Getting old sucks. Thanks again Tony and hope we get to meet someday. Until then, good shooting. Les. Edit : I really like the Dymalux stock by Randy Owens. I live in a high humidity area and I don't think this stock will be affected by it. However, It is heavy and if you are trying to make weight It's not what you need. I think my rig weighs about 15 lbs. If I were going to change anything on another build It might be a FF trigger and a different barrel, but I don't know if there is one better than what I have.

 

[tonykharper]

Tony, thanks for your reply. We shoot at Coast Rifle and Pistol Club which is just a few miles North of the Gulf of Mexico. It seems the wind is always blowing. I would like to shoot this rifle indoors but we don't have an indoor range close by. At 77 I doubt that I will be traveling to any shoots. I read about you guys all the time and would like to meet y'all one day. We are all in our 70's and enjoy our local fun shoots. What prompted me to have this rifle built is everyone at the range stepped up their equipment and my Cooper TRP-3 wasn't cutting it anymore. Most of what prompted me to choose the Turbo action was reading over on the Calfee site. He may be a little over the top, but at one time he was tops in building winning rifles. I wish I knew one tenth of what he does about rimfire rifles. I read everything I can to learn what I can. It's as simple as that. My son lives in Louisville which is close to Bill's hometown of Borden. I'll take him some of my home made Cajun hog's head cheese the next time I visit. That's if I can contact him. At my age my eyes are not the greatest, but I don't consider that a handicap while looking through a 48X scope. My misses are probably caused by my poor wind reading ability and buying ammo in the blind without testing. That's about all we can do today. As far as the crescent shaped firing pin is concerned I can' tell much difference shooting outside. I was told, by I forget the source, that you might see a small difference in ignition uniformity accuracy shooting inside. EDIT: Then again, I may have been told this about the PAS ignition uniformity of the Turbo action.Don't know. Getting old sucks. Thanks again Tony and hope we get to meet someday. Until then, good shooting. Les. Edit : I really like the Dymalux stock by Randy Owens. I live in a high humidity area and I don't think this stock will be affected by it. However, It is heavy and if you are trying to make weight It's not what you need. I think my rig weighs about 15 lbs. If I were going to change anything on another build It might be a FF trigger and a different barrel, but I don't know if there is one better than what I have.

Les,

You prove without a doubt, learning is a lifelong experience for those that stay interested and active.

I agree with everything you have said.

I would like to ask you to consider attending the Triple Crown match at Kettlefoot Va.

That one match would give you the opportunity to see and meet about everyone in all the RFBR games. IR 50/50, PSL, and ARA.

If you can only make one trip that would be the one to make. Would love to meet you one day.

TKH (4628)

 

[tim]

It might be helpful to point out, for valid data you would like you need to establish as close to “ideal” testing days.
On those rare days where you get calm, overcast, drizzle kind of deal, and/or last light/first light are your best hope to establish the decent rifle baseline.

 

[penn63]

Tony, I'll put the Tripple Crown on my bucket list. I would enjoy putting a face to all the names I have read about on these forums. I'm sure I could learn a lot there also and meet some great guys. Everyone I have talked to in this sport will go out of their way to help someone.

Tim, We are going to make some changes to our 50 yd. benchrest range. We are enclosing the area behind the benches, we have 10, with isinglass curtains that we can roll up if need be. Our prevailing wind comes through that area and gives us fits.The range will be lighted also and that should afford us the opportunity to shoot at night when the wind usually lays down. The problem I'm having is finding test lots of ammo to find a lot that this rifle likes. Killoughs has no black box at present and don't know when the next shipment will arrive. They have some Tenex that's been there for awhile and no one is jumping on it. Trying to get Midas Plus is even more of a challenge. I hope the ammo shortage subsides before I get too old to shoot. We have lost three shooters in the last two years. One of the older guys told me that Elvis was dead and he didn't feel so good himself. LOL. Thanks for all the advice. Les

 

[tim]

The ammo is not going through a big shortage, Per se it’s really more that there are a hell of a lot of new buyers straining supplies.
You’re not too far, drive over or ship gun to Mesa to test a few lots of CenterX and Midas. I just finished two.

 

[stiller]

You asked

I would start with a 2500X RBLP action, Muller 8 barrel, Rotex low profile Dymalux stock, BixNAndy trigger and Holeshot Tuner. I would then top it with a Nightforce 15x55 scope. In general, anyone assembling a gun from these components can just put it together and get about 90% out of it from the box. IF I am going all out, here is the procedure I would do.

I would get my barrel unlapped and taper lap it to about 0.0003 end to end, or just get it lapped by Paul. I slug it and push the slug both directions multiple times for various amounts checking for even taper. IF it was not, I would cast a lap and finish the job. I then cut off 1 inch from the breach, indicate it in to 0.001 on the grooves in my Haas CNC lathe and proceed to thread the shank. I would cut the tenon for a 1.051 headspace action as all of my personal guns and any spec guns I build for sale are that. I do that because I can then test, sort and tune on known platforms. I bore the chamber and cut the final lead with a micro honed Henrickson reamer. My chamber is very unique and would be hard to cut with a reamer only. I then use my proprietary finish technique on it to blend the lead. I then cut it to either 24 or 25 inches, once again I have an exact number I use, and crown it with a 11 degree face and a 45 deg edge break on the bore interface area. After that I laser engrave the required ATF information and a date code and then spin it on the belt sander. BTW, this is the procedure I use for ALL my barrels that I do.

I would then disassemble the trigger and polish the problem areas in them and then install the trigger and measure the overlap on the sear surfaces. I then cut the bottom of the cocking piece to get about 0.020 overlap. I check pinfall and then tune the indenture on the case by trimming the spring until I get a uniform 0.018 deep dent on a new unfired Eley case. IF the footprint needs work, I do it first, but I seldom have to as the wire EDM cuts them so close from the start.

I install the barrel on the action to 350 in-lbs torque using anti-seize and put it in the stock and check for motion when loosening the screws. I really want to see 0.002 or less motion there at the end of the forearm. Some people claim less then that, but it is really hard to truly measure it and I have found by test that anything under 0.005 does not seem to matter. I check tracking on the stock and don't like to see much more than 0.050 motion on the target within about 0.25 inches of recoil. IF going hog wild, I will get the stock from Randy and finish sand the tracking areas myself and get it as close to perfect as possible. In the end, I am pretty sure it does not matter though.

I fit the tuner to the barrel with about 0.001 clearance and LIGHTLY lock it on. In general, there are decent tuner spots at about 135 and 200. I try it around there and if it shoots ok, continue on.

I am currently doing some testing on some batches of barrels. I chambered 30 blanks, half at my 24 inch and half at my 25. I am going to run them through the tunnel without a tuner, with a tuner and sort and record the results. I then want to see how they tune up and how ammo sensitive they are. My goal is to get 3 barrels out of them that are better than my current ones.

I guess that is about enough for now, but to me, that is what a state of the art RFBR gun would consist of. As you may surmise, it's not just the components, but how/what is done in the assembly process.

BTW, I assemble a lot of guns for people using those parts. I install the action, trigger, barrel as described, tuner, stock etc and sell them for the price of the parts plus a little for testing it when I have them available. I leave the fine tuning up to the customer as well as tuning and ammo selection. That gets a lot of people guns that are competitive for under $4k. IF I go to all the other effort, the cost is substantially more, especially for sorted barrels. I DO NOT take on those builds right now or plan to in the future. Depending on how my barrel test goes, I may be putting out a run of 10 to 15 special guns with a custom model name, serial number, stock color configuration etc. The price will be nearly double that though.

 

[tonykharper]

I would start with a 2500X RBLP action, Muller 8 barrel, Rotex low profile Dymalux stock, BixNAndy trigger and Holeshot Tuner. I would then top it with a Nightforce 15x55 scope. In general, anyone assembling a gun from these components can just put it together and get about 90% out of it from the box. IF I am going all out, here is the procedure I would do.

I would get my barrel unlapped and taper lap it to about 0.0003 end to end, or just get it lapped by Paul. I slug it and push the slug both directions multiple times for various amounts checking for even taper. IF it was not, I would cast a lap and finish the job. I then cut off 1 inch from the breach, indicate it in to 0.001 on the grooves in my Haas CNC lathe and proceed to thread the shank. I would cut the tenon for a 1.051 headspace action as all of my personal guns and any spec guns I build for sale are that. I do that because I can then test, sort and tune on known platforms. I bore the chamber and cut the final lead with a micro honed Henrickson reamer. My chamber is very unique and would be hard to cut with a reamer only. I then use my proprietary finish technique on it to blend the lead. I then cut it to either 24 or 25 inches, once again I have an exact number I use, and crown it with a 11 degree face and a 45 deg edge break on the bore interface area. After that I laser engrave the required ATF information and a date code and then spin it on the belt sander. BTW, this is the procedure I use for ALL my barrels that I do.

I would then disassemble the trigger and polish the problem areas in them and then install the trigger and measure the overlap on the sear surfaces. I then cut the bottom of the cocking piece to get about 0.020 overlap. I check pinfall and then tune the indenture on the case by trimming the spring until I get a uniform 0.018 deep dent on a new unfired Eley case. IF the footprint needs work, I do it first, but I seldom have to as the wire EDM cuts them so close from the start.

I install the barrel on the action to 350 in-lbs torque using anti-seize and put it in the stock and check for motion when loosening the screws. I really want to see 0.002 or less motion there at the end of the forearm. Some people claim less then that, but it is really hard to truly measure it and I have found by test that anything under 0.005 does not seem to matter. I check tracking on the stock and don't like to see much more than 0.050 motion on the target within about 0.25 inches of recoil. IF going hog wild, I will get the stock from Randy and finish sand the tracking areas myself and get it as close to perfect as possible. In the end, I am pretty sure it does not matter though.

I fit the tuner to the barrel with about 0.001 clearance and LIGHTLY lock it on. In general, there are decent tuner spots at about 135 and 200. I try it around there and if it shoots ok, continue on.

I am currently doing some testing on some batches of barrels. I chambered 30 blanks, half at my 24 inch and half at my 25. I am going to run them through the tunnel without a tuner, with a tuner and sort and record the results. I then want to see how they tune up and how ammo sensitive they are. My goal is to get 3 barrels out of them that are better than my current ones.

I guess that is about enough for now, but to me, that is what a state of the art RFBR gun would consist of. As you may surmise, it's not just the components, but how/what is done in the assembly process.

BTW, I assemble a lot of guns for people using those parts. I install the action, trigger, barrel as described, tuner, stock etc and sell them for the price of the parts plus a little for testing it when I have them available. I leave the fine tuning up to the customer as well as tuning and ammo selection. That gets a lot of people guns that are competitive for under $4k. IF I go to all the other effort, the cost is substantially more, especially for sorted barrels. I DO NOT take on those builds right now or plan to in the future. Depending on how my barrel test goes, I may be putting out a run of 10 to 15 special guns with a custom model name, serial number, stock color configuration etc. The price will be nearly double that though.

Jerry,

The last line in your post is the most exciting news I've heard in a long time.

I hope you build those "special" rifles. I think it would do more to help the sport than anything else I can think of.

You certainly included a lot of information in your post and I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.

Some may be surprised about having to go through your Bix and Andy triggers before use. A few others have been doing that as well but have not talked much about it.

Others may be surprised about having to go through 30 barrels to get three. I'm sure you are looking for that very rare "Hummer" Tony Boyer use to talk about.

You are in a unique position of being able to offer a fully capable RFBR rifles for under 4K. That is great value for money.

It will be extremely interesting to see just how much better your "special rifles" perform compared to your standard rifles.

Please keep us informed about your builds.

I have covered Calfee SPEC rifles and J-Pat SPEC rifles on this site and would love to cover your builds as well.

I know you have more to do than you can get done and don't need the advertising, but the shooting community needs to know what is happening in our sport.

TKH (4628)

 

[stiller]

Jerry,
... Others may be surprised about having to go through 30 barrels to get three. I'm sure you are looking for that very rare "Hummer" Tony Boyer use to talk about. .....
TKH (4628)

I need to clear something up because I have had a few people ask me about this. What my plan is on keeping the best 3 for my guns IF they are better than barrels I already have. I fully expect more than 3 of this batch will be top notch barrels. The whole run is an experiment where I have enough supposedly identical blanks to have some statistical significance. I am playing with 2 lengths and one other thing. They are all Shilen 0.900 Ratchets with very similar bore sizes. I have chambered up lots of them lately supplied by customers and most have been pretty darn good.

All that being said, we all know that we have good barrels and the occasional few that are just a little better or even great. The Octagon I taper lapped a few years back for Bad Bob that I used in 2018 was probably the best barrel I have used to date. Gorham is now using it and has been pretty much kicking you know what with it. ANYONE that thinks you can get a barrel like that one on every try is kidding themselves though.

Hopefully at least 10 of these will be exceptional, and it so, the run of special rifles may get built. I'm not going to pursue them unless I already have good barrels for them. I have a batch of 8 groove Mullers hopefully coming down the pipe soon also that will be evaluated the same as the Shilens. It's all part of one large experiment.

Hopefully this sets the record straight.

BTW, what is the (4628) on your name for?

 

[tim]

Jerry, why two specific barrel lengths ? Expected tunes ?

 

[Jerry H]

The barrel would be a properly taper lapped, R5 or possibly a reverse taper contour, polygon rifling 16.25 twist. The trigger would be a Flavio Whisper, set sub ounce. Tuner of my own design. The stock would be a RoTex low profile. The action would be a 90 degree LPRB, round aluminum sleeved, two screw, front lug, two piece firing pin with an adjustable pin fall of .170 to .210, engineered to feed, extract, and eject reliably with a 1.0 x 20TPI x 0.505 tenon. To my knowledge, no-one has made said action design to date due to the challenging specifications. But I have ideas that might make it work.

 

[tonykharper]

I need to clear something up because I have had a few people ask me about this. What my plan is on keeping the best 3 for my guns IF they are better than barrels I already have. I fully expect more than 3 of this batch will be top notch barrels. The whole run is an experiment where I have enough supposedly identical blanks to have some statistical significance. I am playing with 2 lengths and one other thing. They are all Shilen 0.900 Ratchets with very similar bore sizes. I have chambered up lots of them lately supplied by customers and most have been pretty darn good.

All that being said, we all know that we have good barrels and the occasional few that are just a little better or even great. The Octagon I taper lapped a few years back for Bad Bob that I used in 2018 was probably the best barrel I have used to date. Gorham is now using it and has been pretty much kicking you know what with it. ANYONE that thinks you can get a barrel like that one on every try is kidding themselves though.

Hopefully at least 10 of these will be exceptional, and it so, the run of special rifles may get built. I'm not going to pursue them unless I already have good barrels for them. I have a batch of 8 groove Mullers hopefully coming down the pipe soon also that will be evaluated the same as the Shilens. It's all part of one large experiment.

Hopefully this sets the record straight.

BTW, what is the (4628) on your name for?

Barrels I've been getting from Paul have been really good. I'm sure you will have more than enough great ones to make your rifles.

That said, barrels have always been somewhat of a mystery to me. I heard firsthand how Tony Boyer described his "Hummer" barrels. I've also heard others describe great barrels.

In all the time I've been shooting I don't think I've ever had a "Hummer" barrel. But then, I'm not sure I would know one if I did.

Most of the barrels I've had were good and have allowed me to win many matches, but not one of them performed 100 percent of the time.

I've never known if the stray shots happen because of the barrel or the ammo.

I can't predict how a barrel will perform by looking at it with a borescope, but I can tell how one feels by push slugs through it.

I've spent a lot of time measuring slugs. Even though I may not be able to get a precise measurement, I can normally tell when one is larger than another.

When lot testing ammo, I've often seen a barrel that would shoot a particular lot better than another. Maybe that is what some consider a "Hummer".

But never seen a barrel that will shoot all lots of ammo. In other words, I believe bad ammo is bad ammo, and no barrel can make it shoot.

This is my experience, yours maybe totally different, if it is please share.

Jerry, you asked about my the 4628 after my initials. That is part of the serial number of a Turbo V3 action.

It is also numbers exchanged for letters of the grandiose name of a RFBR rifle.

I've also heard it is the last four of a well-known member of the RFBR community. I guess it can stand for many things.

I have three builds I'm working on; I hope to get all of them completed so I can start the tuning process.

Building can take a long time, but tuning, at least for me, can take forever. But it gives me something to do and look forward to everyday.

TKH (4628)

 

[tonykharper]

The barrel would be a properly taper lapped, R5 or possibly a reverse taper contour, polygon rifling 16.25 twist. The trigger would be a Flavio Whisper, set sub ounce. Tuner of my own design. The stock would be a RoTex low profile. The action would be a 90 degree LPRB, round aluminum sleeved, two screw, front lug, two piece firing pin with an adjustable pin fall of .170 to .210, engineered to feed, extract, and eject reliably with a 1.0 x 20TPI x 0.505 tenon. To my knowledge, no-one has made said action design to date due to the challenging specifications. But I have ideas that might make it work.

Jerry,

Would you like to elaborate on why you want the particulars you listed?

I think most agree on the taper lapped bore. But why the polygon rifling and 16.25 twist?

Please share details and maybe a pic or two about your tuner.

Since you specified a 90-degree bolt I assume you are talking a 2 lug action?

I'm not challenging your choices; I just want to understand why you picked them. Please share.

TKH (4628)

 

[Jerry H]

I have had better luck with polygons over the years. In benchrest, the thinking is you want the slowest twist that will stabilize just enough to get to the target. 14 twist used to be the norm in short range CFBR and now it is 13.75. 16.5 is the norm for 50 yd RFBR. Considering the variables in RF ammo, I just want a little cushion. The new tuner is undergoing evaluation and it is too early to be discussed. Nothing earth shaking is expected though. I should have an opinion in a few months. Yes, I prefer a two lug but I may have to accept a single top lug for design constraints. Heck, in RF, it might be better than a 2 lug.

 

[Hal]

Jerry

Thanks for sharing your information on what it takes for a cutting edge rifle. A lot of great information.
Could you go into lapping a barrel a little more, what grit, the length and how hard the lap,how long ect

Thanks for sharing.

Hal

 

[tonykharper]

Jerry

Thanks for sharing your information on what it takes for a cutting edge rifle. A lot of great information.
Could you go into lapping a barrel a little more, what grit, the length and how hard the lap,how long ect

Thanks for sharing.

Hal

Hal,

I'm not Jerry, and I am not a gunsmith. I have lapped a few barrels but that certainly doesn't make me qualified. With that said let me offer this.

Lapping barrels is a very involved process. You have to be really committed to take it on.

It is really something that should be left to the professionals. We are lucky to have Paul Tovalstat lapping Muller barrels. Many including me, consider Paul to be the best in the business, bar none.

If you do decide this is something you want to do. You will need a barrel holding device that will allow a rod guide that lines up perfectly with the bore.

This is harder to make than one may think. If you try to use a simple v type cradle with a pair of V's you will find lining up the V's perfectly fairly hard to do.

You can't clamp hard on the barrel, or you will distort the bore. You have to be able to push your bullets through the bore without feeling any change at the clamping areas.

Then you will need a heating device for the lead, a vice to hold barrels vertical, good quality lapping rods and jags that will allow molten lead to stick to them and not come loose.

It is an art to pour molten lead into a bore and having it stick to the jag and not the barrel. Long laps are desirable. Getting them much longer than 3 inches is very hard to do.

Also be prepared to melt the lead out of the bore when the lap comes loose from your jag or the lead sticks to the barrel rather than the jag. This will happen more often than you like.

Everyone has their favorite lapping compound and grit number. I don't think it needs to be any finer than .320. I'm sure others will have a different opinion.

I'm not trying to talk you out of lapping, I'm just warning you it is quite a process.

Believe me the money we pay for barrel blanks especially ones lapped by Paul is well worth it.



TKH (4628)

 

[Hal]

Thanks for sharing info and pictures.

Hal

 

[Jerry H]

Jerry,

Would you like to elaborate on why you want the particulars you listed?

I think most agree on the taper lapped bore. But why the polygon rifling and 16.25 twist?

Please share details and maybe a pic or two about your tuner.

Since you specified a 90-degree bolt I assume you are talking a 2 lug action?

I'm not challenging your choices; I just want to understand why you picked them. Please share.

TKH (4628)

The new tuner design was a complete success in one aspect and an utter failure in another aspect. Oh well, good thing I only built one.